Posts by hooberus

126

DNA and Man's origin

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

.

i think as time goes on and dna gets understood better and better it will be imposible for fundamental christians to defend thier position against evolution.

kind of like the catholic church going against galileio saying the "earth is not the center of the universe".. "eventually"(maybe not now) to fight against the evidence makes you look very stupid and under heavy mind control.. don't get me wrong i beleive there is a god, and i think he used "gradualism" to create the universe and life, i even feel the first 2 chapter of genesis are discribing a very long drawn out process that took just as evolutionist are telling us, billions of years till finally man appears.. eventually the wt is going to have to change its understanding of genesis to even stay credible..

hooberus

funkyderek I have read some of the talk-origins arcticle you linked. I'll try to read more of it in depth when I get the time. Here is a portion of it.

talkorigins arcticle: The term Mitochondrial Eve itself is a title given retroactively to a woman. Often (and as is certainly the case with the ME that we are discussing) the conferring of the title occurs many hundreds of thousands of years after the death of the woman in question.

when I said this earlier:

Mitochondrial and other studies do seem to indicate that all of us decended from one woman and one man. (Forcing evolutionists to speculate that there were others who hypothetically existed but who left no living decendants.)

I was simply stating the fact that all of us (living humans) decended from one woman. Perhaps I should have used the phrase "living humans" in my statement.

I know that evolutionists theorize that that there were other women living at the same time as this woman, as well as that there were other women who lived before her, whom we also decended from. This things are discussed in the arcticle that you linked.

However, theories are theories, and facts are facts, and the fact is that all of us living humans seem (based on mitochondrial DNA evidence) to have decended recently from a single female.

126

DNA and Man's origin

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

.

i think as time goes on and dna gets understood better and better it will be imposible for fundamental christians to defend thier position against evolution.

kind of like the catholic church going against galileio saying the "earth is not the center of the universe".. "eventually"(maybe not now) to fight against the evidence makes you look very stupid and under heavy mind control.. don't get me wrong i beleive there is a god, and i think he used "gradualism" to create the universe and life, i even feel the first 2 chapter of genesis are discribing a very long drawn out process that took just as evolutionist are telling us, billions of years till finally man appears.. eventually the wt is going to have to change its understanding of genesis to even stay credible..

hooberus

Abaddon, the title of this thread is "Re: DNA and Man's origin"

Posting Guidelines
To ensure all users feel safe and keen to participate, please avoid:

Insulting, threatening or provoking language
Inciting hatred on the basis of race, religion, gender, nationality or sexuality or other personal characteristic.
Swearing, using hate-speech or making obscene or vulgar comments.
Breaking the law
This includes libel, condoning illegal activity and contempt of court (comments which might affect the outcome of an approaching court case). You may post a small amount of third party material, but please help us to avoid breaching copyright by naming its author and publication. We are unable to investigate all third party material, so where possible, please provide a link instead.
Spamming
Please don't add the same comment to more than one forum.
Advertising
You can mention relevant, non-commercial websites as long as they support your comment.
Impersonating or falsely claiming to represent a person or organisation.
Please don't mislead other users by abusing our registration procedure.
Posting in a language other than English.
Invading people's privacy
Please don't post private addresses or phone numbers, including your own. You may post email addresses so long as you make it clear who they belong to.
Posting an off-topic comment.

Forums may be moderated to make sure they stay friendly and welcoming, legal and relevant. We reserve the right to edit or delete posts at own discretion and without notice, which we consider to be unacceptable. If you repeatedly break these rules, you may be prevented from posting.

8

Jesus' body was raised.

by hooberus in

the follwing scriptues are taken from the book of john.. 2:18then answered the jews and said unto him, what sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

2:19jesus answered and said unto them, destroy this temple, and in three days i will raise it up.

2:20then said the jews, forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

hooberus

The follwing scriptues are taken from the book of John.

2:18

Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

2:19

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

2:20

Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

2:21

But he spake of the temple of his body.

2:22

When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

comment: Jesus' body was raised, not "disposed of" as the Watchtower teaches.

20:24

But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

20:25

The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

20:26

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

20:27

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

comment: Jesus' body had wound holes, hense it was the same body that was nailed to the tree, not a different one as the Watchtower teaches.

7

Anointed VS. G.B.: Who is Faithful Slave Class?

by Liberty in

jw
friends

plmkrzy's post about the wt article on who should partake of the "emblems" really brings to light a serious contradiction in the watch tower society's own convoluted theology.

many here have already pointed out these contradictions but i think it needs repeating in a clear post of its own.

if, as this new wt article claims, an anointed one does not have any "greater understanding" of scripture than the non-anointed then what happens to the old teaching that the anointed are regularly in communication with jah's holy spirit and transmit these communications to the wt society's leadership?

hooberus

The solution is simple: The anionted are spirit-directed. They receive their spiritual direction through the timley arcticles in the Watchtower and Awake magazines.

Ouch ..wait . . They are the ones who are supposed to provide the information for the Watchtower and Awake arcticles !

126

DNA and Man's origin

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

.

i think as time goes on and dna gets understood better and better it will be imposible for fundamental christians to defend thier position against evolution.

kind of like the catholic church going against galileio saying the "earth is not the center of the universe".. "eventually"(maybe not now) to fight against the evidence makes you look very stupid and under heavy mind control.. don't get me wrong i beleive there is a god, and i think he used "gradualism" to create the universe and life, i even feel the first 2 chapter of genesis are discribing a very long drawn out process that took just as evolutionist are telling us, billions of years till finally man appears.. eventually the wt is going to have to change its understanding of genesis to even stay credible..

hooberus

funkyderek said:
Human DNA might appear the same, if humans were directly created but it would not be necessary for it to be so similar to other animal DNA, there would certainly be no reason why the degree of similarity of DNA between different species would be so strikingly close to what is predicted by comparative morphology and fossil remains.

Why shouldn't a creator use very similar DNA for creatures with very similar morphologies? It worked didn't it ..I mean Cindy Crawford seemed to come-out just fine !

DNA evidence has simply confirmed beyond all shadow of a doubt what has been known for a century and a half, that all life on earth is related and that humans descended from an apelike ancestor.

or one could juat as easily say:

"DNA evidence has simply confirmed beyond all shadow of a doubt what has been known for a century and a half, that all life on earth is related and that humans and apes were created by a common designer."

126

DNA and Man's origin

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

.

i think as time goes on and dna gets understood better and better it will be imposible for fundamental christians to defend thier position against evolution.

kind of like the catholic church going against galileio saying the "earth is not the center of the universe".. "eventually"(maybe not now) to fight against the evidence makes you look very stupid and under heavy mind control.. don't get me wrong i beleive there is a god, and i think he used "gradualism" to create the universe and life, i even feel the first 2 chapter of genesis are discribing a very long drawn out process that took just as evolutionist are telling us, billions of years till finally man appears.. eventually the wt is going to have to change its understanding of genesis to even stay credible..

hooberus

funkyderek said:
When our Mitochondrial Eve was alive, the mitochondrial Eve at the time may have been a homo erectus or homo habillis. Go back far enough, and she was an apelike creature, further back she was a small rodent. But there's nowhere to draw a line. There was never just one man and one woman.

Even the supposed evolutionary date of 200,000 years ago for Mitochondrial Eve forces her to be a homo-sapian (human). Homo hablis was supposedly much, much, older.

funkyderek said: Go back far enough, and she was an apelike creature, further back she was a small rodent. But there's nowhere to draw a line. There was never just one man and one woman.

Mitochondrial and other studies do seem to indicate that all of us decended from one woman and one man. (Forcing evolutionists to speculate that there were others who hypothetically existed but who left no living decendants.) There are no direct studies which can positively take us back to ape-like creatures, let alone rodents. This must be extrapolated based on evolutionary theory.

11

WTBS Inc. brainwashing terminology

by MacHislopp in

jw
friends

- n of times use of the word.16,083 times.

- n of times use of the word.6,150 times.

- n of times use of the word.2,321 times.

hooberus

How abou the "main theme of the Bible"

the VINDICATION of Jehovahs SOVEREIGNTY by means of the kingdom.

On my 1999 CD vindication never was in the Bible even once!

neither was "sovereignty" even once!

"sovereign" was I think about 300 times in the OT but only 3 Times in the text of the NT!

Of couse "Jehovah" is not in any of the original texts of the NT.

So how can these things be the main theme of the bible?

5

Getting Them To Question

by mackey in

jw
friends

does anyone have a suggestion as to raising questions in the mind of a witness without actually mentioning their beliefs?

i spoke to my jw friend about some concerns i had and got nowhere.

any conversation about her beliefs is seen as an effort to undermine her beliefs.

hooberus

In the Witness mind faith in the Organization is the same as faith in God, leaving "Jehovah's Organization" is the same as leaving Jehovah himself. Doubting the organization is the same as doubting Jehovah. So before bringing up damaging information it is helpful to separate the Witnesses faith in God (which we want them to keep) from faith in the WT Organization (which we want them to loose)

Here are some questions which can be brought up using a 1970 Watchtower arcticle in which while speaking of other groups they contradict the above principals which they usually drum into JW minds.

Is questioning a religious organization that claims to represent God the same as questioning God?

Is doubting a religious organization that claims to represent God the same as doubting God?

Where should we place our ultimate faith: in a religious organization or in God?

To whom do we owe the greater loyaly to a religious organization or God?

Does John 6:68 refer to a church organization or to a person (Jesus Christ). Should a religious organizaion take a passage applied to Jesus Christ and apply it to itself?

The above questions can be brought up using the January 15, 1970 Watchtower p. 37-40 which contains an arcticle titled:

"Which Comes First- Your Church or God?"

"The "first man" represents the believers who remain faithful to their church out of loyalty to the religion they were brought to believe in. Thier attitude is: Right or wrong, it is my religion! Is that the way you feel? If so, you are certainly a loyal person. But to whom do you owe the greater loyalty-to your church, or to God? With so much disbelief rife throughout the earth, you are to be commended for maintaining your faith, but where should your faith be placed-in a religious organization, or in God?" p.37

"The "second man" mentioned in the Nouvel Observateur represents those Catholics and Protestants who stay with their church because they do not know where else to go. They havebeen taught that their church represents God, and they do not want to turn away from him. They disapprove of many church practices or doctrines, but they hope to reform their church from within. Typical of these are the 744 French Catholics who, in November 1968, sent a long open letter to the pope. In it they stated: "Today the Christian needs to live in a 'true' Church . . . Therefore all that is false, contrary to the Gospel and scandalous within the Church today wounds the Christian." Then followed a long list of grievances against the Catholic Church and it current teachings and practices. Yet, toward the end, these catholics expressed their unconditional adherence to their church by alluding to John 6:68 and stating: "Who could we go to? In her [the Roman Catholic Church] we find the One who has words of eternal life." p.39

I beileve that this Watchtower arcticle can with a few simple questions be used effectively to separate the witnesses "Loyalty to God" from "Loyalty to the Organization". The Issue of faith in a religious organization being separte from faith in God is addressed nicely. Also issues of "where else to go" and the misappication of John 6:68 from Christ to a "church" or "organization" can be very effectively brought up using this arcticle.

In an earlier post the follwing was given by a former witness as some of the reasons for staying in the Watchtower Organization.

"Obstacles/hinderances: Loyalty. Thinking that there was no where else to go. Fear of the unknown. Believing God and the Watchtower were inseperable. Believing we would lose Gods protective barrier and bring death on our family (Like Job) if we left."

I believe that the above article can be used effectively and non-offensively to deal with these common issues.

126

DNA and Man's origin

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

.

i think as time goes on and dna gets understood better and better it will be imposible for fundamental christians to defend thier position against evolution.

kind of like the catholic church going against galileio saying the "earth is not the center of the universe".. "eventually"(maybe not now) to fight against the evidence makes you look very stupid and under heavy mind control.. don't get me wrong i beleive there is a god, and i think he used "gradualism" to create the universe and life, i even feel the first 2 chapter of genesis are discribing a very long drawn out process that took just as evolutionist are telling us, billions of years till finally man appears.. eventually the wt is going to have to change its understanding of genesis to even stay credible..

hooberus

I know you're not the 'Bible Answer Man'. But if you posit something based on xyz, and someone comes along and refutes it by saying abc, and you then don't address the rebutal, it rather frustrating. You seem to bail when you cannot refute something using the set of facts that fit within your belief envelope. And when it becomes a pattern of behaviour, well, you can call me, I can call you.

Just because someone posts a "rebutal" does not mean that my post was invalidated or that I need to respond. If I feel that my post stands on its own, I may not feel it necessary to respond. Also when I consider taking the time to giving a response (to a rebutal), I evaluate from whom the "rebutal" came from to determine if I am wasting my time.

20

NEW WORLD TRANSLATIO. WAS IT INSPIRED BY JEHOVAH.

by nightwarrior in

who wrote the new world translation.?????????????

as it has no author,no one is brave enough to claim responsibility for this particular interpretation of the bible.

whom is responsible for all the changes of scripture, no one will put there name to doing this.therfore if no one from the society claims to being the author ,is it because they have invalidated the word of jehovah and are scared that they will receive the plagues as mentioned in revelation.for adding to the scriptures or taking things away.

hooberus

Perhaps Revelation 17:8 in the NWT contains an "inspired warning" about the WTS itself !

The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the foundation of the world." Revelation 17:8 NWT

"We cannot but admire the high principles embodied in the proposed League of Nations, formulated undoubtedly by those who have no knowledge of the great plan of God. This fact makes all the more wonderful the ideals which they express. For instance, it has been made plain by President Wilson and the advocates of his ideas that the proposed League of Nations is more than merely a league to enforce peace. They would not have us consider it to exclusively from the standpoint of politics or of military relations. It should be considered as fully from the economic and social points of view. The President's idea seems to be that the League of Nations which he proposes would stand for world service rather than mere world regulation in the military sense, and that the very smallest of nations shall be participants in its every arrangement. In other words, his idea undoubtedly is that the league shall not be established merely for the purpose of promoting peace by threat or coercion; but that its purpose, when put into operation, will be to make all nations of earth one great family, working together for the common benefit in all the avenues of national life. Truly this is idealistic, and approximates in a small way that which God has foretold that he will bring about after this great time of trouble." Watch Tower February 15, 1919 p.51 reprints page 6389