Posts by pillowheadpete

66

Big Love does the Mormon Temple ceremony this Sunday

by FormerMormon in

jw
friends

16 years ago

http://www.salamandersociety.com/temple/ (shows a pic from tv guide).

damn... i gotta get hbo.. i wonder which version they'll do.

the throat and intestine spilling oaths or the more sanitized ones they have been using since 1990. they can't show the whole endowment ceremony in one episode.

16 years ago

pillowheadpete 16 years ago

True Purplesofa, inkling and Former Mormon - I've misspoken. Poor choice of words in using 'intelligent'. 'Duped' perhaps equally a poor choice. I acknowledge this after rereading what I wrote.

I recognize that there are those among us who have fallen prey to activities where intelligence has had nothing to do with it. I recognize that people are born into these situations everyday. I recognize that when children are born into families and do not have the ability to choose what to believe until they've grown up a bit and read and traveled and lived a while and then can decide for themselves. - Becoming part of a cult is not necessarily a sign of lack of intelligence. I was only speaking in the context of a few friends of mine (who happen to be CCGs *card carrying geniuses*) who have sort of been marked as free thinkers and intelligent, in my estimation, when I posted what I did.

I guess I'm not familiar with cultic tools. And the definition of a cult is so loose anyway. That is, any group that is unified in religious worship and that has particular ceremonies is a cult and in this definition there is not the negative connotation that other definitions of cult have. The real definition of a cult that is the most widely used is a sect of religion that is living outside the conventions of society and that follow a charismatic leader. And Muhammad, Budha, the Pope and even Jesus Christ all fall into this category. So any religion anywhere is kind of a cult.

I recognize that ALL people can be drawn into things that are good for them and can also be drawn into what is not good for them. I realize that on a global scale, collectively religion can do equal harm as it does good. And it often comes down to who is in charge and what they do with that charge.

So the collective assertion is that JW and Mormon are cults is true in the literal sense of the definition of what a cult is.

BTW: Did any of you happen to see Big Love? Have any of you talked to any Mormons about it? I learned that they showed the apex of the ceremony. It was like a shot to the gut of a close friend of mine. We both didn't see how it affected the story. And really what was shown made sense to me. Sorry if I'm seen as a mindless idiot to all of you who have been abused or disconcerned. I'm probabally a guy who is headed straight into hell in your estimation and headed for a life of torment. But I did see it and think that it was special. -- These guys are simulating what they think it would be like to pass into heaven and HBO and others just punked them.

So I guess the sympathy for my friends of watching someone splatter what they hold as dear all over is part of their cultic tools?

Link

66

Big Love does the Mormon Temple ceremony this Sunday

by FormerMormon in

jw
friends

16 years ago

http://www.salamandersociety.com/temple/ (shows a pic from tv guide).

damn... i gotta get hbo.. i wonder which version they'll do.

the throat and intestine spilling oaths or the more sanitized ones they have been using since 1990. they can't show the whole endowment ceremony in one episode.

16 years ago

pillowheadpete 16 years ago

Wow, I wasn't expecting that! To be clear I'm not sent here by the LDS (mormon) church. I must be getting closer though if I've been mistaken for a Mormon. Sorry but that is a FIRST! Ha-ha! But I'll defend their message, any of my mormon friends, and I'd defend all of you if I knew your stories based upon what I believe is right. I'd defend the Unitarians. I'll defend Budhists and all Christians to some extent. I will defend anyone who was abused no matter their religion.

Beksbks -

Who is Susanhere?

Purps -

I first met missionaries in Arkansas too, interestingly enough. I lived in a few places there (Jonesboro and Conway) in the 1990s.

Blacksheep -

I'd be interested to hear what you mean by cult tactics. I guess I'm concerned because I'm being committed to do certain things and I know they are just doing their job. It's like, I want to trust them - you know? But none of you trust them.

Sacolton -

The whole Joseph Smith thing amazes me, frankly. I've read so much about that guy (stuff from Mormons and stuff not from Mormons) that it could make your head spin. I think the dude was reasonably intelligent. Was he a prophet? (I guess that's what it really comes down to for me to decide.) The Book of Mormon is fascinating to me. Seriously, I don't even thing Steven King could have written something like that. And mormons claim that he translated it in like 90 days. But I see where he did do things that I wouldn't consider a prophet doing. And there are parts of their history that boggle my mind.

Formermormon -

I'm going to ask one of my friends if they teach that Church and God are more important than spouse or family.

Remember the whole Gale Sares book, "I am Third" (by the Chicago Bears running back)? The whole point of that was him stating he put himself after his wife and after god. That's always what I thought they've meant. These young guys out here preaching have had to put God first in their lives. Like Purps has noticed, it's pretty easy to see that they're not digging it most days. But their convinction to stay out here and teach a numbskull like me is compelling. I suppose they could just go home, right?? Are they being held here against their will?? Does anybody know?? From what I understand they do not HAVE to go to the mission, right?

Your posts are quite humorous. "Ex JW's, having been commissioned by the flying spaghetti monster, I apologize for Pillowhead, who is an idiot. In the name of Joseph's Myth. Amen" This was hillarious! Is that what we're going to see on Big Love!!?

Quiz me on anything theological and you'll see I've done my homework. Who doesn't know about the Tanners? Aren't they like the mormons number one source against them? Didn't they make that movie the Godmakers? I've been looking into this stuff for years and years. This isn't the first time I've talked to these guys.

I have nothing against you for where you are in your journey. Sorry if you took offense to my words before. I just do not do well with angst for those that fall away from one group and then seek to tear it down, but who am I to judge? For all I know you and your wife may have dealt with some very painful things. And I would understand this. Can you blame me for these posts wringing in my ears when it goes against where I've been leaning lately?

I guess I've never seen the family as a selling point to religion, for the mormons or any other faith. But it makes sense that they (all religions) use this. Just like countries have always used God to sell their agendas with war.

The whole family thing just makes sense to me conceptually because we are all set up into one, and so are all of the animals to some extent, so that is where I start. And actually that is what is appealing to me about the Mormon faith. It's not that they are family oriented or whatever. It's so easy to love your own child and so natural for a child to love her/his mother (and even his father). It's that they frame our entire existence around a God who loves us like no one else can. And that we're here to make choices and learn and things and that God wants us to be happy. And that happiness comes from serving people like our family and friends. And that it DOES matter what we do and what we say. It matters to other people's happiness. Not that we're just saved one day. We all matter and what we do and say to each other matters.

I've gone from feeling sorry for the Mormons about the Big Love thing to feeling sorry for the abused. If anything this site has taught me about the height of feelings for cults for those who have been hurt or offended or abused by them. I thank all of you for sharing with me. It has broadened my horizon.

Noni1974 -

I'm getting some similar things from these guys.

Rebel -

I would believe that some mormons might come to places like this. They're a pretty ambious bunch! I would have thought my soul isn't worth saving, but these young guys have made me feel otherwise. Seriously, I can't speak for their church, but the love these guys have shown me can't be faked.

It's been tough for me to sort that out.

Link

66

Big Love does the Mormon Temple ceremony this Sunday

by FormerMormon in

jw
friends

16 years ago

http://www.salamandersociety.com/temple/ (shows a pic from tv guide).

damn... i gotta get hbo.. i wonder which version they'll do.

the throat and intestine spilling oaths or the more sanitized ones they have been using since 1990. they can't show the whole endowment ceremony in one episode.

16 years ago

pillowheadpete 16 years ago

Wow - I have really been enlightened about what Jehovah's Witnesses believe as a result of finding you all here. Thanks all.

Yeah, rebel8, sorry for the 'monitoring' thing. I truely thought you were a monitor because you knew it was my first time posting. Don't these type of sites have monitors that have tools to see who are first timers? I was approved by someone, so I was wondering if it may have been you.

Am I wrong or does it seem like any society throughout history that will not allow their people to go to other meetings, read other books, or have some of the basic joys in life like celebrating holidays and events seems to always have things to hide. This is so bad, but by your description it reminded me of a very powerful political group that held power in Germany and other parts of Europe in the 1940s. Didn't they discourage the same kinds of things?

Sammie and Rebel -

Thanks for your suggestions about Unitarianism.

I know some wonderfull Unitarians. I attended one of their services long ago, though I don't remember much about it. Perhaps I'll go again.

Interesting things about them, to me, are that they believe that Jesus was sent by a Heavenly Father and that they are one in spirit. (Which is interesting since most Christians believe in the Trinity.) They believe that in Christ we see "the measure and stature of the perfect man" - I like that quote from their creed. They do not believe in predestination. They believe in a kind and wise paternal god. They believe that the highest office we can have in this life is one of parents. I like all of that. These things ring true. (It makes sense to me that there is a god. And I believe, or I guess I have faith, that Jesus Christ was sent by him. I pray to god and thank him for things.) -- They seem to be a very forgiving and understanding bunch. As I talk to them, each believes a bit differently and each is not certain how to answer some of my questions. Which is okay.

What I've found most interesting lately is how different Christian religions handle the break from where Christ was crucified. We can read all about this in the last books of the Bible after Christ died, but what happened after that? The Catholics changed so much of what Christ taught. Most of what they believe can not be found in the Bible, but they claim they have continuous authority back from Peter.

I also think it is interesting how they handle Christ as the one who laid out god's church and what that means today. I believe that a group of scholars, as smart as they are, could never come up with the mind of god and know what to eliminate from the Bible. I do not believe that the bible is the definitive word of god.

Link

66

Big Love does the Mormon Temple ceremony this Sunday

by FormerMormon in

jw
friends

16 years ago

http://www.salamandersociety.com/temple/ (shows a pic from tv guide).

damn... i gotta get hbo.. i wonder which version they'll do.

the throat and intestine spilling oaths or the more sanitized ones they have been using since 1990. they can't show the whole endowment ceremony in one episode.

16 years ago

pillowheadpete 16 years ago

Thanks, undercover, sammieswife, rebel and purps - you've given me lots to think about.

I think I've believed only in myself for too long. Maybe if I was 50 years old, I could more readily justify being baptized into a church because I agree that I'd certainly be more wise by then. But until then, it would be nice to have some guidance. And maybe baptism doesn't offer that. But I would think it would be like a symbol to me and others that I'm serious about taking steps closer to god. -- I'm looking for guidance that is spiritual - you know? Not eclectic though. I'm looking for worship where I can have a real fellowship with people who struggle like me. I'm looking for a place where I can question and not be judged. I'm looking for a way to become closer to god. It may be kinda like a fraternity. I'm willing to change certain habbits in exchange for this. But I do not want to join a cult. It's just that religion that doesn't stand for anything but an easy and good time does not take me there. And the religions that take stances all seem to be cults. I'd like to be as devoted to god as I am my wife because of the same kind of love I have for my wife. Does that make sense? That is, if god is indeed my creator...

I have some concerns about the LDS faith. In my study, I have found that most exmormons have been excommunicated because they have broken oaths or vows or whatever and they were let go. Or they've just kinda let it go cause they don't believe it anymore. I've seen a few examples out there of people who have very sad stories like abuse (in various forms) from trusted leaders. (Good thing I'm not the judge of all, because I'd have a hard time showing any mercy to leaders who have abused.) But they're kinda few and far between. Mostly exmormons who are vocal were caught doing certain things (like the Tanners) that they promised they wouldn't do to be part of their faith.

The saddest fact from my research over the past 15 years is that JWs who have been offended, seriously hurt, or emotionally abused could fill a major city within the U.S. I do not know if one is more right than the other, or if these tendencies are a result of some other dynamic.

To me, family is important. There is like 75 million families worldwide, if I'm doing my math right. And this is more than any one country's population in the entire world. So this to me is kind of my baseline. It's natural as a father to want to provide for and protect my kids.

The LDS faith makes family their baseline, so maybe that's what is ringing true right now. The whole Heavenly Father concept is a tough one for me as a proud male who makes a lot of mistakes everyday. But what if there was a god out there that created families for a reason? And what would that reason be? Would he want to provide things for me like I do for my kids? Would the hole point just be that he wants me to find Nirvana, or joy, or happiness or peace or whatever? -- I don't want to get too deep, I have a tendancy to do that.

BTW: This site is interesting about mormons: http://www.sunstonemagazine.com/ Some of these articles are really interesting. I'm not sure who is behind it. It doesn't look like the mormon church is behind it. And the people who write stuff really have questions and are struggling. But they do not seem angry at the mormons.

I swear I'll shut up now.

Link

66

Big Love does the Mormon Temple ceremony this Sunday

by FormerMormon in

jw
friends

16 years ago

http://www.salamandersociety.com/temple/ (shows a pic from tv guide).

damn... i gotta get hbo.. i wonder which version they'll do.

the throat and intestine spilling oaths or the more sanitized ones they have been using since 1990. they can't show the whole endowment ceremony in one episode.

16 years ago

pillowheadpete 16 years ago

Honestly, I am not a JW. And if this is for ex-JWs, this will be my last post. I'm not trying to intrude. And in fact I'm sorry for steering this. (I'm not one to chat or post or whatever...)

In fact, my heart goes out to you if you were harmed by them or any other gropu. Truthfully it does. It makes sense to me now why you are here. It makes me very sad to think that you or anyone else would have to deal with having been harmed. No wonder your feelings are strong. As such you become an authority and one I would trust - because those feelings are warranted.

I do not know why I am here, actually. I'm just a guy who is lost and trying to find truth. I do not believe that the JWs have this to offer. I am not even investigating their faith. Not interested in the least.

In all honesty, I'm interested in the Mormon faith. There is so much said both ways - good and bad about Mormons. Maybe my search should be an inward one instead of going to places like this. I could reply all day to things and it would not likely get me further along my way.

I'm just like all of us I guess. Wasn't it Brett Michaels from Poison who said, "Give me something to believe in...."?

Link

66

Big Love does the Mormon Temple ceremony this Sunday

by FormerMormon in

jw
friends

16 years ago

http://www.salamandersociety.com/temple/ (shows a pic from tv guide).

damn... i gotta get hbo.. i wonder which version they'll do.

the throat and intestine spilling oaths or the more sanitized ones they have been using since 1990. they can't show the whole endowment ceremony in one episode.

16 years ago

pillowheadpete 16 years ago

You’re right, Rebel, this was my first post. (How’d ya know?) No insults intended. My apologies if I’ve offended anyone. I need to tone it down from time to time for sure. I just like to mix it up now and again. *BTW, rebel, Are you a moderator or just a defending rebel by nature? You’re obviously watching this forum closely.*

What do you mean by, “now that we’ve excited a cult”? (My guess is that the cult you are referring to is the mormons.) Who is “we” anyway? Is the “we” you are referring to those that oppose mormons and you count yourself actively among that gropu? My guess is that you are like sacolton and define mormons and jws as cults, but not the fastbecoming non-denominational christiainism which is about casual get togethers, songs and dances and a few prayers. How is this any different? As one who likes theology and studies to find truth, rather than keep score of insults or enjoy exciting groups with opposition, I like to question things. What is it that nondenominationals believe – what unity do they have and what Christ do they stand for? At least cults tend to be organized around a unified cause.

I’ve looked at Eastern Tibetan Buddhism and it’s very appealing. They do many things that are considered sacred to them that are quite odd by the standards of most Western civilizations. But they are so kind and gentle about it. They do not offend. The Dali Lama does not offend, nor does the idea of him being quasi-deity. There are not groups in the U.S. that attack these people. It’s very clear to these people what they believe and their doctrines/beliefs are organized. Yet they do not grow in large measure.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses have their translation of the Bible which was translated by a group of scholars who basically decided what was important and what needed to be changed. Sacolton, my understanding is that the only similarities between JW and Mormons are that they both actively proselyte. It is interesting that their roots are around the same time but likely just coincidental?

So I’ve always been fascinated about why the mormons are targeted so readily and why they grow so rapidly. My take is it is because they believe that they are right – this is why people hate them, and this is why people join them. But I guess this makes sense to me if they profess to follow someone who has claimed to be a prophet. That guy, Joseph Smith, was either what he said he was or he is not. It seems like it would be so easy to disprove, but have you read the Book of Mormon? I’ve read it and it is AMAZING that this thing was brought about because it’s so bizarre in it’s simple message – which is that there is an organization to what God does and when philosophies are followed, civilizations flourish and when they are not they go by the wayside. Kind of a weird deal, but it’s all over the Bible through (with cities getting destroyed and what not). Could Joseph Smith just be the most lucky charlatan in history? Like Michael Scott of the show The Office who is always screwing up and you think he’ll get fired for sure but it lucks out and works in his favor? How can so many people buy in??

At the end of the day, I would think that if there is a god then that entity is organized. And how can it put it’s message out there so that people with grasp it. Would that god want people to get it. How would that god get it out there. The whole prophet thing interests me, kinda like the show Evan Almighty. That’s why a Pope figure, the Dali Lama, or the LDS prophet today (Monson?) fascinates me. If god all of the sudden woke me up with something to do, I’m sure it would be difficult. But I respect mormons, and there history is fascinating. It’s got flaws of them not being Christians by definition, but it is hard to form an argument around all of the humanitarian efforts. Even their Proposition 8 stuff was within the law. It was their members that raised that money. Prominent executives in big businesses included. Not their church. Whether you agree with them or not, isn’t that kind of organization kind of interesting to examine?

Does any of this make sense???? I’m confused.

Link

66

Big Love does the Mormon Temple ceremony this Sunday

by FormerMormon in

jw
friends

16 years ago

http://www.salamandersociety.com/temple/ (shows a pic from tv guide).

damn... i gotta get hbo.. i wonder which version they'll do.

the throat and intestine spilling oaths or the more sanitized ones they have been using since 1990. they can't show the whole endowment ceremony in one episode.

16 years ago

pillowheadpete 16 years ago

Hey Mrs. Fiorini -

Good thing you've learned all that you need to know about the LDS faith from 'former mormon.' When you go car shopping, I bet you're the type that asks a Ford Dealership to tell you all about Chevys.

Hey Former Mormon -

Should Mrs. Fiorni, myself and anyone else hold you as an authority for what they believe? Anyone that makes promises like that in a place that they once saw as "sacred" and then changed their mind and now uses angst as their motivator ought not to be a diffinitive source of acuracy. But I'm glad you have a voice to be heard with this site. It's appears that you enjoy it.

You all gotta praise the Jehova's Witnesses for providing open forums. Most of them I speak with are not as open-minded and shun any thinking that is not their own and even discourage reading any material other than their own. Which makes sense to a point but not when it's taken to extremes.

The fact is that HBO will get their ratings. HBO will lose some mormon subscribers, but big deal. The Mormons will react (but their church leaders won't give the reaction people expect), and that church will continue to grow at a rapid pace. And they'll be hated on again and again.

Maybe I ought to talk to those nerdy white guys in the white shirts and hear about what Mormons really believe. I can tangle with them. Besides, I respect people that keep things special to them as special and have no respect for voyeurs or those who cheapen to get gain (even if it is to stroke their egos like FM). And I highly doubt that all of the intelligent people that I admire and respect who have become Mormons have been duped. If anything, as much as I may not want to admit it, at least they have ideals for which they stand.

Besides how is it different from what the Jehovah's Witness regard as private? Isn't it kind of the same thing?

Link