Posts by ICHING

60

How Well Do You Know The Bible?

by dark clouds in

jw
friends

i want to share a perspective, with everyone that comes here to read, for i feel it will take some of us in a new direction.

perhaps it will allow for some creative thinking and interesting discussion or maybe it simply wont go anywhere.

it does not really matter either way, for there are subjects which can only be speculated on and thoughts which can only be shared.

ICHING

ps: back with more later:

LATER

clouds -

i've given this a lot of thought myself - I think - for many years now - and in fact back to my days as a jw -

the twilight years of my incarceration at least

the following will attempt to explain a little why -

PT1

& to cut a long story short:

it got to the point for me

going from house to house

that I really couldn't give a fuck what the householder believed -

I'm mean specifically - non christian faiths - islam, buddhism, hindu , judaism - they're the big non christian ones aren't they?

(for the sake of this post I will call christianity - the western faith )

(meeting a christian faith at the door - yea I might bother a little with argument etc)

like I was saying meeting non christian faiths at the door - I couldn't give a fuck about proving them wrong

for the very reason which I believe you are driving at in your post (correct me otherwise)

and that is

from the cross cultural perspective

their faith is just as valid

of just as much merit

as mine is

to think otherwise

to my mind

was to think from within the narrow little confines of an ethnocentric "viewpoint"

PT2

I was trying to draw from up out of the narrow confined ethnocentric viewpoint - and in this context i mean ethnocentric as in a persons homelands predominant faith

it's just like another form of patriotism to me -

a persons faith -

the way they feel about their faith

is almost comparable to the way they feel about their homeland

ethnocentric

your homeland and your faith are usually two things you are born into
with absolutely no say in the matter

and yet just about everyone thinks their homeland & their faith are the greatest

as if they had some choice in the matter

sayings like

"…………………..(insert town where you grew up)

was the greatest place in the world to grow up"

or

"………………… (insert your homeland)

is the greatest country to live in in the world"

spring to mind

ask someone what they think of where they grew up or what they think of their country as a place to live and see what they say

now I know most people aren't openly going around talking like this about their faith but my speculation (based on conversations knocking on a zillion doors)

is that the majority of people die belonging (even if in name only) to the same faith

they were born into

kind of a silent vote if nothing else

most people do not die as a member of a faith they were not born into

but remember they also did not choose this faith

why change?

when people are talking with great sentiment about their homeland or their faith

all they are telling you about is something that is familiar

people seem to feel this great sentiment toward the familiar

there's no logic or rationale behind it

"it's familiar that’s the reason why I like it "

most of these people have never made a real comparison between

their homeland and another

or their faith and another

so the muslim kills the jew because his faith/homelands is superior

jews kill muslims because their faith/homeland is superior

muslims kill hindus

hindus kill muslims

christians kill everyone

but these things they feel so "strongly" about are things they never consciously chose in the first place

it was a complete lucky dip

a lottery

if you were born in pakistan instead of where you were you might be fighting allah vs krishna with india

apply the above to all the faiths and homelands in the world

I don't think there's any rationale going on with this stuff

it's all another form of indoctrination in a way

ethnocentric indoctrination

indoctrination whole populations are under

national patriotism

spiritual patrionism

these things are like the jw's to me

they make no sense

because it doesn’t make sense

and what doesn’t make sense

is peoples belief in things they didn’t choose themselves

but acting like they did

PT3

people love the familiar

you walk into a crowded room full of strangers

how do you feel?

then you see someone you know

how do you feel?

why?

you walk into a supermarket you need some toothpaste

you go to the toothpaste section

there's floor to ceiling toothpaste options

which one do you choose?

why?

the list goes on

and I'm speaking generally

but most of the choices you make

you make because it's a familiar choice

I'm talking "comfort zone"

the familiar is easy - the unfamailiar is hard
the familiar is friendly - the unfamilair is unfriendly
the familiar is comforting - the unfamilar is frightening

you don't exit ramp the comfort zone without an extraodinarily good reason

CONCLUSION

now where was I ?

oh yea

faith and ethnocentricity

all I am talking about here is

preference for the familiar

and

why?

these days I just think:

bible - yea that’s the religion of the christian/western world

gita - yea that’s the religion of the hindu /eastern world

islam - yea that’s the religion of the muslim world

and so on

each being as equally valid as the other

because that seems to be the reality of the situation

to me

I-CHING
(to lazy to write a better second draft class)

60

How Well Do You Know The Bible?

by dark clouds in

jw
friends

i want to share a perspective, with everyone that comes here to read, for i feel it will take some of us in a new direction.

perhaps it will allow for some creative thinking and interesting discussion or maybe it simply wont go anywhere.

it does not really matter either way, for there are subjects which can only be speculated on and thoughts which can only be shared.

How Well Do You Know The Bible?

by dark clouds in

jw
friends

i want to share a perspective, with everyone that comes here to read, for i feel it will take some of us in a new direction.

perhaps it will allow for some creative thinking and interesting discussion or maybe it simply wont go anywhere.

it does not really matter either way, for there are subjects which can only be speculated on and thoughts which can only be shared.

ICHING

clouds:

Tao-te-Ching --- basic text of Taoism. attributed to Lao-tzu

also known as the I-CHING

I-CHING

ps: back with more later

16

WHERE DO I GO FROM HERE?

by Unchained in

jw
friends

this is my first time at this so bare with me.

i will be turning 21 tomorrow so i decided to celebrate like this.

my family threw me a surprise birthday a week ago and we even had a pinata .

ICHING

hilovedubs

you said:

if they ever cease to love the DIFFERENCES in people, then they cant really be loving at all, as God loves us.

interesting observation - and another reason why i had to bail out

religion can be a very convenient facade/justificaton for a myriad of screwed up personal agenda issues - homophobia - ethnocentricity misogny - power broking to name a few obvious ones

most fears prejudices ignorance can be comfortably accomodated

"i dont hate .......... ( insert personal prejudice ) GOD does!"

to the point where it gets hard to tell where the personal agenda ends and the "religion" begins

essentially a handy justification for anything in life which refuses to conform and fit within the rigid little confines of their "consciousness"

rules are a godsend for hidden agendas

rather than fit into life

life HAS TO fit into them

it's a complex subject and i for one am no martyr in this regard
but hanging out in an environment that seemed hell bent on this attitude was something which made me very unhappy.

I-CHING

31

Restrictions

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

there is a practice among jws of applying restrictions to individual members.

it forms part of the judicial process and, although having no scriptural basis, is applied automatically to erring ones who are judged to be repentant.. so, for a period of time, usually up to 12 months, the individual is not allowed to share in commenting at meetings, offering public prayer, appearing on the platform in congregation meetings, or in serving as an auxiliary pioneer.. as with any man-made law, difficulties arise from this practice.

although no announcement has been made to the congregation, individual congregation members can have their curiosity aroused.. for example, take the real-life situation where a sole parent has been placed on restrictions by a judicial committee.

ICHING

expat ozzie zev - thanks - iching

13

The "Final solution" Watchtower style.

by Norm in

jw
friends

the final solution watchtower style.. we have been told on this board lately that the watchtower society preach the good news and that is one of the good things that set them apart from christendom.

people who call the watchtower society message good news has hopefully never really given much thought to what is going to happen if their good news should become reality.

let us investigate what these good news is all about.. the 22. may, 1999 issue of awake!

ICHING

hi norm -

in answer to your quandry -

i remember this scene from an episode of GET SMART:

Zigfried has Max in a room - suspended by bound wrists from the ceiling - pistol in Max's face

ZIGFRIED

(heavy german accent)

you know vot vee do vith our enemies Smart?

MAX

(pauses to think for a moment)

you ignore them and hope they go away!

Maybe the boys in the Writing Dept caught a re-run of that epsisode before knocking that article out?

that's the only explanation i can think of to answer your query right now

I-CHING

KAOS CLASS

PS: norm you work is much appreciated - thanks

Edited by - ICHING on 24 March 2001 20:11:4

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

ICHING

N67 & 2Laws - hi

a question:

do you believe that the WTBTS is GODs earthly organisation and that belonging to that organisation is according to the bible one's only means of salvation?

if your answer is yes - enjoy.

if your answer is no - you are of course aware then - that this very organisation whose "truths" "achievments" and "accomplishments" you are investing so much effort in defending - will have you out on the street - on your ass - DF'd - the moment they ever find out you've been posting your independently thought out opinions on them on this APOSTATE (ie non wtbts authorised, non wtbts approved) site?

thats the loyalty they will show in return for yours to them -

think about it

I-CHING

PS: not meaning to be rude but please -

do not respond with some glib second hand regurgitated piece of man made

wtbts policy/procedure/regulation/theocratic law/butchered "biblical" "reasoning"

because it means nothing to me - thanks

31

Restrictions

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

there is a practice among jws of applying restrictions to individual members.

it forms part of the judicial process and, although having no scriptural basis, is applied automatically to erring ones who are judged to be repentant.. so, for a period of time, usually up to 12 months, the individual is not allowed to share in commenting at meetings, offering public prayer, appearing on the platform in congregation meetings, or in serving as an auxiliary pioneer.. as with any man-made law, difficulties arise from this practice.

although no announcement has been made to the congregation, individual congregation members can have their curiosity aroused.. for example, take the real-life situation where a sole parent has been placed on restrictions by a judicial committee.

ICHING

zev - hi - don't think we've spoken before - i read the click through to your post on internet danger - GREAT!!

i can't imagine the situation not getting to the point (though this may take a few years - when home computer/internet connection is as commonplace as a telephone or tv) - as was mentioned in the thread - jw's knock on someones door - person may be a "sheep like one" - they have a chat - place mags and so on - after the jw's have split - the "sheep like one" goes on line to research the JW's - finds all the dirty laundry on them - the permutations of possible outcomes is limitless but whichever way you look at it - it aint looking good for the wtbts -

i just think it's such beautiful poetic justice - the evolution of a technology that they cannot control - that poses a very real threat to their existance - as demonstrated by their pissweak efforts to counter it in the articles you posted -

not only that - i love the way the internet is taking them apart externally - (whose gonna convert after researching online?)
and internally - all the fascist views about the internet the wtbts publish within their own literature serves to foster curiosity amongst the faithful as well.

as a JW you are isolated - especially isolated within your fears and doubts - as you are not permitted to express these under threat of expulsion ( read: death at armageddon) as we are all only to well aware

(in the utilisation of this isolation technique to maintain control the wtbts is truly diabolical)

it's easy to think you're alone - BUT NOT ANYMORE

if the wtbts cannot keep the faithful isolated (impossible now with the advent of the internet ) it's essentially all over bar the shouting for them - it really is just a matter of time now i think

i cannot see how the situation will not evolve where the irrefutable evidence against the wtbts (online evidence) becomes so overwhelming - they just won't be able to bullshit their way out of it any longer
especially because the bulk of that evidence against them is courtesy of themselves.

this is so good because it makes them look so dumb -

i'm only speculating now but i reckon they've probably sat around in smug complacency there at crooklyn (to borrow a tallyman phrase) for the last decade or so waiting for this internet fad to fade into obscurity like the hula hoop or pet rocks etc.

WRONG!

judging by the articles you've posted reality is starting to set in

- way too little - far too late

i thought these guys were manning the watchtower - staying alert - keeping on guard - they must off been getting a very long manicure when the internet poked it's head over the horizon and then rode in at breakneck speed to completely surround them

with who nows how many new people connecting to the internet going online globally - daily

the demise of the wtbts is a beautiful scenario to watch unfold

THANK YOU SATAN FOR INVENTING THE INTERNET - (i mean he has to be responsible for it doesn't he?)

and who knows what blows the next phase of online technology will deal the wtbts - if they haven't sunk by then?

i'm predicting individual web tv - where individuals can essentially become online broadcasters programming their own content - much like a video conference situation -

and soon and so on

thanks zev

I-CHING

31

Restrictions

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

there is a practice among jws of applying restrictions to individual members.

it forms part of the judicial process and, although having no scriptural basis, is applied automatically to erring ones who are judged to be repentant.. so, for a period of time, usually up to 12 months, the individual is not allowed to share in commenting at meetings, offering public prayer, appearing on the platform in congregation meetings, or in serving as an auxiliary pioneer.. as with any man-made law, difficulties arise from this practice.

although no announcement has been made to the congregation, individual congregation members can have their curiosity aroused.. for example, take the real-life situation where a sole parent has been placed on restrictions by a judicial committee.

ICHING

ozzie englishman - back on the subject:

on the other hand if you are of the "anointed" (can't believe i'm still using this BS jargon but anyway)

if you are of the anointed and get asked to leave the Org. (DF'D) and are then subsequently "repentant" etc and reinstated - you can still reclaim your business class reservation* in heaven up there beside JC can't you ?

i may be wrong but my impression at the momen is that this is in fact the case

does this mean it's say theoretically possible to be on restrictions and yet partake at the memorial?

*anointed status

I-CHING

(can you believe i used to believe this bullshit class)

Edited by - ICHING on 24 March 2001 8:34:22

31

Restrictions

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

there is a practice among jws of applying restrictions to individual members.

it forms part of the judicial process and, although having no scriptural basis, is applied automatically to erring ones who are judged to be repentant.. so, for a period of time, usually up to 12 months, the individual is not allowed to share in commenting at meetings, offering public prayer, appearing on the platform in congregation meetings, or in serving as an auxiliary pioneer.. as with any man-made law, difficulties arise from this practice.

although no announcement has been made to the congregation, individual congregation members can have their curiosity aroused.. for example, take the real-life situation where a sole parent has been placed on restrictions by a judicial committee.

ICHING

ozzie - off the subject here - you mentioned you still go to meetings or have up until recently?

whats the latest regulations on jw's & the internet?

I-CHING