Posts by superpunk

54

Good news for a change....

by ProdigalSon in

amidst all the tragedy and bad news lately, i thought i would share something positive.

for those of you who are aware that we are not alone in this universe and that there is a hierarchy of "angels" looking out for us, that disclosure is imminent and that we are headed for a much better world where selfishness and greed are no longer the norm, where mankind will live in peace upon a "paradise earth", free from the wretched clutches of the dark ruling elite (yes, i am talking about the fall of "babylon the great"), then this news is for you: the "elohim" have everything fully under control.. for you skeptics, this is channeled information.

if you think this is foolish, please try to keep your negativity and ad hominem attacks to a minimum on my thread.

superpunk

dude

wait.

wut?

87

Redemption, Salvation, Atonement? The fly in the ointment

by SweetBabyCheezits in

jw
friends

i posted this paine quote in the middle of another thread but thought it deserved its own.

this principle eluded me before reading the age of reason.

it's such a simple, basic concept of justice and yet so many christians miss it (as i did) or ignore it.. .

superpunk

Here's a guy clearly looking at this issue through JW glasses. Nevermind that he's Baptist?

Simply stated, Romans 5:10 teaches that God considers you His enemy. God's anger hangs over you. God must be reconciled or He will punish you as His enemy. Right now God is your enemy. God is against you because of your sin. Nothing that you do can turn away the anger that God has toward you. Christ's Blood alone can do that.

"For he [God] hath made him [Christ] to be sin for us, who knew no sin" (II Corinthians 5:21).

Christ was punished by God on the Cross, as a sin offering. The anger of God was poured out on Jesus to make possible God's reconciliation to you. God could never have been reconciled to a sinner like you unless Jesus had been punished by God on the Cross.

The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ "is the propitiation for our sins" (I John 2:2). God poured out His anger and judgment on His own Son, on the Cross, to make it possible for Him to be reconciled to you.

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin…He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied…" (Isaiah 53:10-11).

"Propitiation" is the appeasement of the wrath of God by the Blood of Jesus. God's anger against you is quieted by the Blood of Jesus. God's rage and fury against you can only be calmed by the Blood of Christ. The furious rage of God against you can only be tranquilized by the satisfying payment of Jesus' Blood.

"…Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood" (Romans 3:25).

So, we ask, "Is 'propitiation' the appeasement of God's wrath?" - And our answer is, "Yes it is."

Adam committed the greatest criminal act in human history. As a result, God justly turned His back on Adam's race, humanity as a whole. God now remains man's judge. The only thing a human being can expect to receive from God is punishment. Man is an incorrigible criminal in the sight of God. God must be reconciled before He can turn to man in acceptance. God could only be reconciled by the vicarious work of Christ on the Cross, in which Christ became the substitute for our sins. The Bible says, "He was wounded for our transgressions; he was bruised for our iniquities" (Isaiah 53:5). J. Oliver Buswell puts it this way: "Christ died for our sins in our place as our substitute" (J. Oliver Buswell, Jr., Ph.D., A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion, Zondervan, 1971, p. 72).

Yes, propitiation is the appeasement of the wrath of God by the Blood of Jesus. God's rage and fury against you for your sin can only be calmed by the satisfying Blood of Christ.

87

Redemption, Salvation, Atonement? The fly in the ointment

by SweetBabyCheezits in

jw
friends

i posted this paine quote in the middle of another thread but thought it deserved its own.

this principle eluded me before reading the age of reason.

it's such a simple, basic concept of justice and yet so many christians miss it (as i did) or ignore it.. .

superpunk

You pick and choose the pasages that you believe make Gd sound like an asshole and a blood thirty tyrant and criticize me when I show the ones that show God to be loving and caring.

Funny how that works...

No, I understand that they both exist, however they are conflicting ideals. I'm also aware that the bible writers were not the least bit troubled by this (as you are not), as they consistently wrote about how loving it was for God to redeem us....right after they got done telling us how much he hated us, without the benefit of blood sacrifice. It's the cognitive dissonance all believers have to deal with, JW or otherwise. You don't need JW glasses to read the clear passages in the bible. Do a google search for things like "Jesus blood gods wrath" and find a bevy of Christians who understand the bible as written.

Here's an example.

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." " (Romans 5:9-11) If when we were God's enemy, he sent Jesus to the cross to die a criminals death in our stead, what wouldn't he do for you now that you have receive right standing with him through faith in Jesus' blood? Jesus atonement for your sin had such a profound effect upon your born again spirit that when God looks at you he sees Jesus. That is cause for rejoicing today!

There are plenty of Christians who would completely disagree with your cherry-picking theology. And they don't need "JW glasses" to read the clear message about God's wrath being pacified only through a violent, bloody sacrifice.

37

"See! See? Just as like the bible says! earthquakes are increasing!"

by highdose in

jw
friends

which is what a dub said to me today.

i would like to come back to him with evidence that they are not.

does anyone have any helpful links they could post to refute this?.

superpunk

If they come at you with that, say "Don't you believe this earth was perfectly designed to support life on it?" Of course. "So why is it constantly trying to kill us all?"

87

Redemption, Salvation, Atonement? The fly in the ointment

by SweetBabyCheezits in

jw
friends

i posted this paine quote in the middle of another thread but thought it deserved its own.

this principle eluded me before reading the age of reason.

it's such a simple, basic concept of justice and yet so many christians miss it (as i did) or ignore it.. .

superpunk

And no mater how many times you say it, that God hates us, you won't make it so, sorry.

Oh I forgot you've re-written the bible to suit your own personal theology so all the scriptures that clearly state that God hates us, we are his enemy, his anger and wrath blazes against us...those are all just metaphors or something.

We all suffer from it, just depending on which side of the argument you are one, you think you don't have it and the other side does.

Not in this case, I dont.

And you think God created the earthquake and the Tsunami?

That wasn't his point at all. He didn't state that God had anything to do with it, simply that he failed to prevent it. (and always has). If he is ignoring it, he's an asshole. If he is powerless to do anything about it, he doesn't deserve his title.

87

Redemption, Salvation, Atonement? The fly in the ointment

by SweetBabyCheezits in

jw
friends

i posted this paine quote in the middle of another thread but thought it deserved its own.

this principle eluded me before reading the age of reason.

it's such a simple, basic concept of justice and yet so many christians miss it (as i did) or ignore it.. .

superpunk

Well I don't think you can beg off to some sort of timeline (John wrote all the lovey-dovey stuff first!) because it's not like the Church Fathers just pulled angry God out of thin air. They were going off of plenty of years of history and written and oral tradition up to that point.

I guess it's just picking and choosing which of these scriptures you want to be emphasized in your faith, if you don't want to admit that the picture of God as an entity who hates us all is accurate, placed right alongside the God loves us all and wants us to be reconciled (to himself, again because he hates us by default).

I'll have another sweet sweet helping of cognitive dissonance, thank you.

87

Redemption, Salvation, Atonement? The fly in the ointment

by SweetBabyCheezits in

jw
friends

i posted this paine quote in the middle of another thread but thought it deserved its own.

this principle eluded me before reading the age of reason.

it's such a simple, basic concept of justice and yet so many christians miss it (as i did) or ignore it.. .

superpunk

Not ashamed, but enlightened

Tomato tomahto in this case. The shame/enlightenment has lead you to decide that the early church fathers were either completely wrong, or were too stupid to get their point across to their audience without making their god look like a hateful, bloodthirsty monster. Ta-dah! It's new Jesus! Re-invented for your 21st century pleasure. And he's ribbed.

87

Redemption, Salvation, Atonement? The fly in the ointment

by SweetBabyCheezits in

jw
friends

i posted this paine quote in the middle of another thread but thought it deserved its own.

this principle eluded me before reading the age of reason.

it's such a simple, basic concept of justice and yet so many christians miss it (as i did) or ignore it.. .

superpunk

Did you miss the scripture above (Romans 5) that declares that Jesus blood is saving us from God's wrath?

Hebrews 9 without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

The bible writers were clear about the bloodthristy nature of their Lord. They understood that he hated them, he hated their sin, and the only way to be saved from his wrath was blood.

So why are new-age Christians seemingly so ashamed of the bloodthirsty nature of their Lord?

87

Redemption, Salvation, Atonement? The fly in the ointment

by SweetBabyCheezits in

jw
friends

i posted this paine quote in the middle of another thread but thought it deserved its own.

this principle eluded me before reading the age of reason.

it's such a simple, basic concept of justice and yet so many christians miss it (as i did) or ignore it.. .

superpunk

And one of those views was that God was full of wraith and hate and vengenace.

That's not constricted to the OT. Paul's entire explanation of propitiation in Romans is based on the premise that God hates us and needed to be appeased.

87

Redemption, Salvation, Atonement? The fly in the ointment

by SweetBabyCheezits in

jw
friends

i posted this paine quote in the middle of another thread but thought it deserved its own.

this principle eluded me before reading the age of reason.

it's such a simple, basic concept of justice and yet so many christians miss it (as i did) or ignore it.. .

superpunk

Can you also show me from the scriptures where it says that God wanted to be appeased through the bloody, violent, torturous death of his Son?

Have you read Isaiah 53? Particularly the conclusion of Isaiah's rant?

10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [ c ] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life [ d ] and be satisfied [ e ] ;
by his knowledge [ f ] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

Romans demonstrates the matter even more clearly, stating numerous times that the only way we as sinners can be saved from God's wrath (in his righteousness he cannot stand us) is by Christ's blood. By default he hates us all, considers us his enemy, and the only way he could stop hating us was through the bloody sacrifice of a human which is just about the only thing that gets him to stop being so damn cranky.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Propitiation is the appeasement of God's wrath - in this case through blood sacrifice, as God required. Trying to paint it as anything else is to re-write not only the dictionary, but the entirety of Christian tradition, which it seems nouveau-Christians, who invent their own doctrines and beliefs as they see fit, seem to have no problem with?