http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-slagzjmdu.
Should their be harmony between all christians in regards to this question, the question of wither homosexuality (or whatever) is a sin?
If they know and have direct communication and a personal relationship with Jesus, I would say that there should be. If they disagree as to Jesus' feelings on the matter, while at the same time both claiming to possess such a personal relationship, we may correctly assume that someone is lying about something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-slagzjmdu.
But that doesn't answer your question when two people that claim to have a relationship with God have two very different views in regards to something, liek the case of BTS and I and predestination, right?
I guess, but I'm not comfortable with that specific example because I'm not familiar with it. To give us a frame of reference I'll use something you said in this thread, rather than take it off topic with what I (and you) consider doctrinal disagreements. I feel like both of us could give a shit about who is RIGHT about predestination - it doesn't affect either of us one bit, and there's nothing we can do about it either way.
Earlier the example was given of asking a random grouping of Christians how JESUS feels about homosexuals. Your response is that "most would agree that it is wrong". I completely agree.
However, "most" in no cases equals "all". I talk with a gay Catholic on another forum who is a member of a gay-friendly parish, who sees nothing wrong with homosexuality as it is an immutable state of being and he knows that Jesus doesn't have a problem with it either. He disagrees with MOST Christians. On such a simple and IMPORTANT question, there should be harmony among people who claim to know Christ intimately. There isn't in this case, and in many others - I trust we can agree on that and not get hung up on minutiae or specifics of THIS particular example, which will just muddy the water. I only gave the example so that you would know where I was coming from, not so it could be overanalyzed and brushed aside.
The discord amongst believers about such simple questions can't be justified or transformed into virtue. It's a flaw in the faith, and someone must be lying when they claim to know Jesus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-slagzjmdu.
what SUCH divergences are those?
Are you serious? I would hope we could assume this as fact, given the thousands of sects in Christianity, ALL of which have arisen over disagreements about what exactly Jesus would have to say on certain matters. They may be major or minor disagreements, but disagreements nonetheless. If we can't agree on that, I really have no interest in debating it with you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-slagzjmdu.
Psac - I didn't say anything about the inconsistencies and contradictions in the gospels. I am talking about Christians who claim to KNOW Jesus. The bible is unfortunately attached to that knowledge, but all Christians claim to have a more personal relationship with Jesus than simply what they read in a book - and THAT is what I'm discussing. Why these Christians, who have this intensely intimate relationship with the Christ cannot agree on even the simplest of his likes and dislikes, and why they are not the least bit ashamed that they cannot do so.
Since we are all judged as INDIVIDUALS, going along with the crowd is not the way to go.
You continuously miss the point and opt instead for red herrings. Instead of focusing on the discord among Jesus' alleged friends, you opt to focus on my fictitious gathering of Christians, and whether or not that is necessary. It's necessity is irrelevent to analyzing the discord among Christians when it comes to describing their LORD to everyone else. I couldn't care less what the New Testament is in conflict with. My point is, that if all these Christians really know and have a personal two-way relationship with the LORD-GOD, then they should be able to give harmonious answers to simple questions.
They cannot. This is not disputable, and I would hope we can agree on that at least.
And so we're left to wonder why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-slagzjmdu.
Excellent answer, tec.
Because many of us are lost, relying on men who are also lost to lead us to salvation. Many of us are slaves to our own selfish desires, and then we twist scripture and abuse the gift of grace to justify living by those selfish desires.
Because so few of us find the narrow path that Jesus spoke of.
Because even those of us who are sincere are imperfect.
However, that seems to be misdirection at best. You can all be as imperfect as you want, it bears absolutely no relevance to my question. If you all allegedly know the same person, then why is there such a divergence of opinion about what that person is like, what he likes, what he dislikes, approves and disapproves of? You are all drawing your information from the same book, all claiming the guidance of Holy Spirit and/or Jesus himself, yet there is no agreement.
The impartial observer suspects some (if not all) of you are lying about knowing this Jesus. After all, since there is such divergence, you can't ALL be telling the truth, so some must be fibbing a bit. But he can't figure out why, save to protect fragile ideologies and groupthink.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-slagzjmdu.
Psacramento
All agree on the messages, the core, of Christian belief:
We both know that's not true. Maybe for some of the things you said you can claim "most", but certainly not "all".
If it all was the same, THEN one should be worried !
And I apologize for being rude, but this is another characteristic of persons of faith - they take the flaws in their faith and magically turn them into virtues. As a simple example, get a decent cross-section of the Christian population from conservative to liberal and ask them how Christ feels about homosexuals, or abortion, or women's rights in the congregation. Certainly these cannot be brushed aside as unimportant topics, the answers given could have ENORMOUS impact on their intended audience (for example a tortured young homosexual who grows up in a fundamentalist household) - yet you will get from Christians (who apparently all INTIMATELY know the same person - Jesus) vastly different answers.
From your answer, you would assume that all the Christians would leave that session arm in arm, beaming from ear to ear that none of them can agree on how Jesus feels about even the simplest of topics - because if they had actually managed to give a harmonious answer then there would be cause for concern.
This logic is completely ass-backwards and counterintuitive to every ounce of critical thinking skills we are taught throughout our lives.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-slagzjmdu.
Superpunk - did you read what I said earlier, about starting with scripture to lead us to Christ, and keeping it as a guide and reminder, but then growing to put our faith directly into the Spirit of Christ and God?
I didn't read the whole thread, it's a long one, so no. Just making observations.
I also find it odd that scripture seems to "lead" Christians to entirely different versions of Christ, depending upon how liberally or conservatively predisposed they are in the first place, so that there is a vast deal of disagreement among Christians as to what Christ is like, what he approves of, what he disapproves of, etc - and they don't appear to be the least bit ashamed of this discord in the ranks.
If you knew me, and then came into contact with three other people who claim to know me, and none of them can agree on even my simplest characteristics and likes and dislikes, what would be your conclusion? That they are either being willfully deceptive, or just making things up as they go along, no doubt.
That's the perception of the impartial and rational observer when it comes to trying to get a concrete concept of Jesus nailed down by talking to Christians about it. Either none of them ACTUALLY know Christ, or one of them does and the rest are just making stuff up. Which of course begs the question - why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-slagzjmdu.
Living according to what this scripture or that scripture might mean is confining. Arguing what each scripture might mean is counterproductive and damaging - at least for me.
But living according to the freedom and the grace and the faith and the love that Jesus and the apostles taught (which we find only in the scriptures) - that is freeing.
I always find it odd when believers try to divorce Jesus or faith from scripture or religion.
given that the god of the old testament & the new testament don't seem to match up, and our first impression of god may be based on our parents, and the many progressive christian religions that stress god's love and grace, we probably all have completely different ideas of who god is; if he/she does exist.
i always thought god was a strict, bad-tempered kill-joy..
Scarlett Johanssen.
well, i talked to some elders and basically said the organization was calling the prophets and god liars, because they were disgarding the importance and relavance of some of the prophecies.
i told them that there is no true organization on the planet right now.
i used luke 21: 8, i used many scriptures and actually i qouted chapters, not just verses where it was obvious they were wrong, i counter verses, they didn't get them.
The told me that God always had an organization, I said yes, and I said Isreal, but right now Isreal is being punished until Jesus returns, thus no one is teaching the full truth.
Who was the organization that Job associated with?
