a few months ago there was a thread about a couple of elders at the mill hill bethel being disfellowshipped because they disagreed with some wt doctrine (i can't recall exactly what it was) and that several other betheliteswere under 'investigation'.
i haven't heard anything since, does anyone know anything more about this?.
borghater xx.
@GromitSK - Paulapollos made comments about the perception of God within the organization which minimus commented on and I followed with my two cents.
@minimus - lol, random anonymous username fail. (At least it was anonymous until JWD added Gravatar support.)
here is what i am getting at with that subject title:.
this sunday's wt study article really hit home for me what many have been talking about on the forum.. when i was growing up, there was a big deal made about the identity of each gb member - people would wax poetically about working with them at bethel, meeting them at a convention, etc.it wasn't unusual for them to be frequently named in articles, pictured in books, and somewhat glorified.. the president of the wtbs was practically on par with christ - he was viewed as practically a deity.. i had friends who could not only name the 12 apostles, but could rattle off the names of the gb members!
now, it seems like the tactic has changed, starting with the reduction of the presidents' role of a few years ago - place massive emphasis on the gb itself as a unit, but keep the profile of the members lower.
With Russell, Rutherford, and Knorr there was a strong promotion of the President of the Society as a figurehead. When you get into Franz presidency the GB was coming into function which dimished the importance of the presidency and "the Society". Henschel had none of the prominence of those that held the office before him. However at the time the GB didn't jump in and fulfill the gap that was created by a loss of singular figurehead. The object of reverence became simply "the Society" and what it represented with the GB working in the background. (This kind of mirrored what happened in Rutherford's time where adoration of Pastor Russell was transferred to the Watchtower Society before moving into worship of Judge Rutherford as "the President".)
With the GB taking the place of an authoritative president there was a lull but then things began to change again. This possibly started with the Governing Body seperating itself from the legal corporations. After that you had the WT leadership encourage the publishers to discontinue using the expression "the Society" and replace it with "the Faithful Slave". Futher promotion came in the revised Organization book where publishers were told that they must trust the Slave completely. But even in this "the Slave" was still pretty nebulous without a real face.
I think certain events of recent years have been to put "a face" to "the Slave". An example is the new "Bearing Witness" commentary on the book of Acts, which features a group photograph of the Governing Body. Also at the beginning of the newly released Creation DVD you have the Ted Jaracz introduction where he is specifically noted to be a member of the Governing Body.
If the trend continues I would expect to see the Govering Body to completely assume the role of the Faithful Slave and distinguish themselves from the rest of "the anointed". Recent Watchtower study articles are heavily leaning toward this without fully committing to the idea. I also would expect the Governing Body to continue to take a more prominent role in the minds of Witnesses. Along those lines expect more face time from them as a group and indvidually. They will continue to become more authorative and the idol worship of them will increase -- because that is just the way it goes in the world and in false religion.
a few months ago there was a thread about a couple of elders at the mill hill bethel being disfellowshipped because they disagreed with some wt doctrine (i can't recall exactly what it was) and that several other betheliteswere under 'investigation'.
i haven't heard anything since, does anyone know anything more about this?.
borghater xx.
Among other things Jesus said, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father". (John 14:9) In Christ we have the clearest picture of the Eternal Father. If Hebrew Scriptures were a complete revelation of Almighty God there would be no need to send the Son to show him to us. The only way to come to know the Father is through the Son - period - that should be the starting point for anyone who is interested in such things. The JW's fail because they marginalize the Son and do not look to him to reveal the Father. They start with the Father (well not really their Father because they deny that he is a father to them - so they begin with Jehovah God) and work their way "down" from there.
Off topic - I know - sorry folks
a few months ago there was a thread about a couple of elders at the mill hill bethel being disfellowshipped because they disagreed with some wt doctrine (i can't recall exactly what it was) and that several other betheliteswere under 'investigation'.
i haven't heard anything since, does anyone know anything more about this?.
borghater xx.
Pauappallos thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree with you that the Watchtower encourages a selfish attitude towad the future. I describe it as materialistic, being concerned with the physical things rather then spiritual . If I could just add one thought to supplement those you shared -
Here is a scripture about a future hope that is often read by Witnesses and shared in their door to door work -
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (Rev 21:1-4)
When a JW read this or shares this, what is the focus? It generally is the part about no more tears, pain or death. That's not a particularly bad thing to desire but I find it interesting that the part about God living with his people is continually overlooked. The focus is always on the material and not the spiritual. A typical JW has no real desire for such intimacy with God. They are content to live in a paradise earth with "the anointed" as their mediators before a distant God. It is a similar setup to what they have today except "the anointed" have moved.
Consider a typical JW presentation which begans with a publisher showing the householder a picture of "paradise earth" and saying, "wouldn't you like to live in a world like this?" [Allow for response] "What part of this appeals to you most?" The focus is on the material, having your own home, plenty of good food, and a pet lion. :-) If you believe in the Word of God, there are so many innumerable blessings that we can enjoy today through Him. JW's are told these things are not for them. They are taught to hope for the future but even then they are deprived of the things we are promised in the here and now.
They have no desire to be "anointed" and to have the spiritual things of God because they have been indoctrinated to long for the things in the material realm. Hence they equate their earthly lusts as having an "earthly hope". This causes them to reject the Bread of Life for perishable earthly bread - all encouraged by Watchtower leadership.
i'm still just trying to understand ..... what is the real essence of why the leaders at the very core of this religion do what they do?
i assume they are all in the 144k, so i get that.
but i mean ... that can't be the entire motivation for all this misery.
fortune and glory, kid ... fortune and glory
from jw.org, here is the new definition of the generation from the april 15, 2010 watchtower.. .
article: holy spirits role in the outworking of jehovahs purpose.
13 third, holy spirit is at work in bringing bible.
With the past two changes to the generation they lost the sense of urgency because it couldn't be tied to any visible group of people on earth today. This new change hints that the current crop of 50+ year olds sitting in the GB will be the anointed to see the Great Tribulations. You have the old-school group with Rutherford, Franz, and Knorr overlapping with the new group of Jackson, Morris, and Lett.
I know the wording of the WT allows for multiple generations but I don't think that is the intent.
My other observation is that they simply aren't trying any more. I recall the old way "new light" was introduced with long, non-sensical explanations - but at least they attempted an explanation. Now they just say "evidently" this is how it is and expect it to be accepted.
i've read by some posters that the watchtower was a "member" of the un.
i believe this is incorrect.. i only make this comment because if we were to repeat the thought that the witnesses were members of the united nations, such misinformation could backfire on us..
They were an active associate of the United Nations Department of Public Information publishing on their behalf with the printing presses they dedicated to Jehovah, distributing such information via millions of Witnesses worldwide also dedicated to Jehovah.
before i go further, has anyone researched or ever found an explanation?
i am into other topics now but fell upon some actual reasons.
i believe the wt just says it's symbolic and since it's not the same 12 as originally, that it proves it's symbolic.
Dan is omitted, presumably for idolatry.
Ephraim is present but is referred to as Joseph. Joseph's two sons, Manessah and Ephraim inherited equal portions with the other sons of Israel, bringing the tribe total to 13. Though not firstborn, Ephraim was blessed over his brother. In other parts of the Bible Ephraim is equated with Joseph.
"bearing thorough witness about god's kingdom", page 115, paragraph 19:.
"that peace and unity now existed in the antioch congregation was clearly evident.
rather than contending with the brothers from jerusalem, the brothers in antioch treasured the visit of judas and silas, for it was only after "they had passed some time, they were let go in peace by the brothers to those who had sent them out," that is, back to jerusalem.
Good catch.
Acts 13:1-3 - Under the direction of the Holy Spirit Antioch sends out Paul and Barnabus as apostles. Acts 15 takes place after this missionary journey by Paul and again it the congregation of Antioch that sends Paul and Barnabus to deal with a problem stemming from Jerusalem. After the problem is dealt with at Jerusalem Paul and Barnabus return to Antioch. Jerusalem sends two prophets of their local congregation, Judas and Silas to accompany Paul and Barnabus to Antioch. Vs 33 reports that after they had spent some time there, the Antioch congregation sent "them", apparently Judas and Silas, back to their home congregation of Jerusalem. The difficulty is that vs 40 has Paul departing from Antioch with Silas for another missionary journey. The alternate wording of Vs 34 has Silas remaining behind.
If you look at these scriptures Antioch does not really appear as a subordinate church to Jerusalem. Under the direction of the Holy Spirit they had authority to send Paul out as an apostle and later dispatch him to sort out a problem caused by some from the Jerusalem church. Antioch received emissaries Jerusalem, Judas and Silas, and also dispatched at least one of them back.
From the New Testament writings it doesn't appear that Paul returned to Jerusalem again until just before his arrest. This would mean that either Silas elected to stay behind or returned to Antioch some time later. I would go with the first.
in just this one letter, i found some very interesting thoughts.
in the context of those who are jehovah's witnesses and claim that their religion is modeled after first-century christianity, i think we are faced with a few questions and some real food for thought.
let's get right into it.. the first thing i notice, in having read all 5 chapters, is the significant near-absence of the name jehovah.
SD-7 -
It stands to reason that congregations would support the needs of extralocal workers. As Jesus and his disciples traveled there was a company of women that provided for his needs. When he visited Judea he stayed in the home of Simon the Leper in Bethany. When Jesus sent the twelve out as apostles (itenerant ministers) he said that they would be able to depend on the hospitality and lodging of those they were proclaiming the good news to support their needs. I think his later instruction to take a purse has to do with changing attitudes and hostility to the good news that later times would bring.
There is an early instructional document called the Didache which is dated late first/early second century that contains these instructions for itenerant ministers.
"And let the apostle when departing take nothing but bread until he arrive at his resting-place; but if he ask for money, he is a false prophet."
Again there was no salaried local senior pastor as we have today. Even the support that was given to extralocal workers was along the lines of basic food/shelter. Note what Paul wrote in his letter to his co-worker Timothy "But having sustenance and covering, we will be content with these."
