Posts by 4examp

13

Public Challenge #1 ~ to Greg Stafford / Jason BeDhun / Serious JWs / Fred Coulter (CofG)

by 4examp in

"the wt conclusion is intellectually dishonest & deliberately deceitful in that the wt is only telling you 4/5 of the truth.".

my mistake.

the sentence should say "1/5 of the truth".. .

4examp

My "rules" (i.e. let's please focus on one point -- made by the WT) are only to keep the discussion focused on answering the WT's bizzare conclusion.

Thank you for your honesty in stating that the absence of the article does not indicate lack of personality -- which is the whole point of the 5 Portraits.

I accept your challenge to a literary discussion via an interesting approach that I will post soon.
Everyone will be able to weigh in on each separate work in the context of Scripture & in the context of an important summary.

P.S. Thanks for the "welcome" & thanks for your honesty, bravery, frankness.

13

Public Challenge #1 ~ to Greg Stafford / Jason BeDhun / Serious JWs / Fred Coulter (CofG)

by 4examp in

"the wt conclusion is intellectually dishonest & deliberately deceitful in that the wt is only telling you 4/5 of the truth.".

my mistake.

the sentence should say "1/5 of the truth".. .

4examp

1. You wrote: "If you're asking me, in the narrative context (Synoptic Gospels) where the (more exactly) "unclean spirits" appear, yes."

Then in the context of the 5 Portraits, why do you accept an "unholy spirit" as a sentient being, but reject "the holy spirit"?

I use the words "holy" and "unholy" pneuma in the 5 Portraits, to highlight the direct grammatical equality.
The actual text uses several words for demons (e.g. unclean, wicked, etc).

2. You wrote: "I don't think the Pauline oppositions of "spirit" vs. "flesh" or "letter" favour personification."

I totally agree, but the 5 Portraits are not referring to this meaning of pneuma.

3. You wrote:"I don't think it is possible to apply either an "impersonal" or "personal" understanding of "Spirit" on ALL NT (let alone OT) texts..."

Again, I totally agree.

13

Public Challenge #1 ~ to Greg Stafford / Jason BeDhun / Serious JWs / Fred Coulter (CofG)

by 4examp in

"the wt conclusion is intellectually dishonest & deliberately deceitful in that the wt is only telling you 4/5 of the truth.".

my mistake.

the sentence should say "1/5 of the truth".. .

4examp

It's clear that the WT argument is simply desperation, to attempt to justify their view.

Do you believe the NT texts present "Unholy Spirits" (a.k.a. demons) as personal?

13

Public Challenge #1 ~ to Greg Stafford / Jason BeDhun / Serious JWs / Fred Coulter (CofG)

by 4examp in

"the wt conclusion is intellectually dishonest & deliberately deceitful in that the wt is only telling you 4/5 of the truth.".

my mistake.

the sentence should say "1/5 of the truth".. .

4examp

{Sorry. Page one was posted then automatically deleted. Here it is again.}

Does the following WT quote (Insight p.1019 / Aid p.1543) pass the "Test of Agreement" with Scripture? "...in a large number of cases the expression 'holy spirit' appears in the original Greek without the article,
thus indicating its LACK of PERSONALITY."

The WT conclusion is based on a fact of Greek grammar (i.e. missing definite article "the").The WT conclusion is intellectually dishonest & deliberately deceitful in that it's only 1/5 truth.

‘Pneuma’ (Greek for 'spirit') is used of: humans, angels, demons (fallen angels / unholy spirits), holy spirit, The Holy Spirit, God, Satan, etc.

Key / Powerful / Pivotal Portraits of Pneuma
- hidden to English readers but vital for understanding
- 5 Portraits of Holy pneuma
- 5 Portraits of Unholy pneuma (singular & plural)
- the 2 sets of 5 portraits involve the (neuter) Greek definite article ‘the’
- "the" may be absent (P#1 / P#2)
- "the" may be present (P#3 / P#4 / P#5).

In the original text, these distinctions on the surface in plain sight ("the" is there, or not).
In most translations, these 5-Portrait distinctions are partially hidden (i.e. ignored or altered).
{{Another part of Scripture hidden to English readers is the 22-letter, Hebrew-alphabet structure of Ps.119.
Each line of verses 1 to 8 begins with Aleph; 9 to 16 with Beth; 17 to 24 with Gimel; etc.}}

Portrait Comparisons
- equal, grammatically identical, parallel sets for direct comparison & obvious conclusion
Portrait #1 ~ no def. art. / no adj ~ translation: spirit ~ or ~ (demon) spirit(s)
Portrait #2 ~ no art. / one adj ~ translation: holy spirit ~ or ~ unholy spirit(s)
Portrait #3 ~ one art. / no adj ~ translation: The Spirit ~ or ~ the spirit(s)
Portrait #4 ~ one art. / one adj ~ translation: The Holy Spirit ~ or ~ the unholy spirit(s)
Portrait #5 ~ two art. / one adj ~ translation: The Spirit The Holy ~ or ~ the spirit(s) the unholy

P#1 = NO definite article / no adjective ~ (focus is on simple fact of Existence)
1a ~ Spirit ~ (Jn.3:5,6; 4:23,24; Rom.8:4,5; Rev.1:10; 4:2; 17:3)
1b ~ (demon) spirit ~ (Lk.9:39; 13:11; 2Cor.11:4; 2Th.2:2)
1c ~ (demon) spirits ~ (Mt.12:45; Lk.11:26; 1Cor.12:10; Rev.16:13,14)

P#2 = NO art. / one adj ~ (focus is on Being’s Character or Nature – good or evil)
2a ~ Holy Spirit ~ (Lk.11:13; Ac.1:2; 4:25; Rom.14:17; 15:13,16,19)
2b ~ unholy spirit ~ (Mk.1:23; 3:30; 5:2; 7:25; 9:17; Lk.4:33; Ac.16:16; Rev.18:2)
2c ~ unholy spirits ~ (Mt.10:1; Lk.6:18; 7:21; 8:2; Acts 5:16; 8:7)

P#3 = ONE art. / no adj ~ (focus is on Activity of the Being)
3a ~ THE Spirit ~ (Mt.4:1; Ac.2:4; 5:9; 8:29; 16:7; Rom.8:16,26,27; Heb.10:29; 1Jn.5:6)
3b ~ THE (demon) spirit ~ (Mk.9:20; Ac.16:18; Eph.2:2 Satan!; 1Jn.4:3)
3c ~ THE (demon) spirits ~ (Mt.8:16; Lk.10:20; 1Jn.4:1)

P#4 = ONE art. / one adj ~ (focus is on Being)
4a ~ THE Holy Spirit ~ (Mt.28:19; Lk.12:10,12; Ac.9:31; 13:4; 16:6; 2Cor.13:14)
4b ~ THE unholy spirit ~ (Mt.12:43; Mk.9:25; Lk.11:24)
4c ~ THE unholy spirits ~ (Lk.4:36)

P#5 = TWO art. / one adj ~ (focus is on Essence of the Being)
5a ~ THE Spirit THE Holy ~ (Mt.12:32; Mk.3:29; Ac.1:16; 5:3,32; 7:51; 13:2; 15:28; 20:23,28; 21:11; 28:25; Eph.4:30; Heb.3:7; 9:8; 10:15)
5b ~ THE spirit THE unholy ~ (Mk.1:26; 5:8; Lk.8:29; 9:42; Ac.19:15,16)
5c ~ THE spirits THE unholy ~ (Mk.1:27; 3:11; 5:13; 6:7; Ac.19:12,13)

Some Observations / Conclusions

The 5 Portraits (as part of God’s original / absolute Truth):
- show Holy & Unholy pneuma in Equal & Identical grammatical structures
- prove that the WT’s missing def. art. argument doesn't tell 4/5 of the whole truth
- prove that The Holy Spirit's Personality cannot be eliminated by a missing def. art.
- make a perfect parallel (for direct comparison & obvious conclusion)
- show the distinction between Person & power; Giver & gift
- proves that "holy spirit" is not Person-only, or Power-only
- provide clear, direct, irrefutable evidence that Holy & Unholy pneuma are Sentient Beings
- are a fact of Greek Scripture -- part of God's eternal, written Word. As such, the 5 Portraits are not affected overall by different Greek texts, or by variant readings, or by translation, or by interpretation, or by expert opinion, or by anything!
- have nothing to do with human opinion, interpretation, or bias.

The text itself, reveals 5 separate "portraits" of Holy pneuma.
The text itself, reveals 5 separate "portraits" of Unholy / unclean / wicked / evil / demon pneuma.
The Portrait charts merely identify the "addresses" of these mirror-image, grammatical facts of Scripture.

To VERIFY the Presence or Absence of each (neuter) Greek def. art. "the" in P#1 - P#5,
compare a definite article chart with any Greek or Interlinear NT.
- See 4th column of WT’s chart on inside back cover of a Kingdom Interlinear, or
- go to www.wikichristian.org/index.php/Koine_Greek:_Definite_Article. or see the posted chart.

For additional confirmation see:
- The Companion Bible (Appendix 101, p.146,147)
- The Englishman’s Greek Concordance (March 1840; p.632-635, 1970).

13

Public Challenge #1 ~ to Greg Stafford / Jason BeDhun / Serious JWs / Fred Coulter (CofG)

by 4examp in

"the wt conclusion is intellectually dishonest & deliberately deceitful in that the wt is only telling you 4/5 of the truth.".

my mistake.

the sentence should say "1/5 of the truth".. .

4examp

Greek Definite Article "the" & possible combinations with "spirit"

CASE

Masculine

Feminine

Neuter

English

Singular

Plural

Singular

Plural

Singular

Plural

Nominative
(subject)

o

oi

h

ai

to
pneuma

ta
pneu.mata

the

Accusative
(object)

ton

tous

thn

tas

to
pneuma

ta
pneu.mata

the

Genitive
(of)

tou

twn

ths

twn

tou
pneu.matos

twn
pneu.matwn

of the

Dative
(to, for, with, +)

tw

tois

th

tais

tw
pneuma
pneu.mati

tois
pneu.masin

to the

Vocative

-

13

Public Challenge #1 ~ to Greg Stafford / Jason BeDhun / Serious JWs / Fred Coulter (CofG)

by 4examp in

"the wt conclusion is intellectually dishonest & deliberately deceitful in that the wt is only telling you 4/5 of the truth.".

my mistake.

the sentence should say "1/5 of the truth".. .

4examp

"The WT conclusion is intellectually dishonest & deliberately deceitful in that the WT is only telling you 4/5 of the truth."

My mistake. The sentence should say "1/5 of the truth".

28

JW vs non-JWs

by 4examp in

hi, i'm brand new here.. how many real jws post here?.

4examp

I won't be able to bring some "killer research"-- just clear, direct, irrefutable evidence not affected overall by different Greek texts, or by variant readings, or by translation, or by interpretation, or by expert opinion, or by anything!

In other words, just info that has nothing to do with human opinion, interpretation, or bias.

28

JW vs non-JWs

by 4examp in

hi, i'm brand new here.. how many real jws post here?.

4examp

My Catholic, next-door neighbour wanted my help. Her husband was studying WT material.
One day he handed me a (thick, English) book & said: "Here is what I believe."
He was more French than English so I asked: "Have you read it?"
His response blew me away -- "No, but that is what I believe !"

Soon after that a very old JW (he must have been over 40 :-) came to my door & said something like:
"Bible scholars have gone through our material with a fine-tooth comb, & never, ever, found anything wrong with it yet."

Pretty soon, his daughter, + the leader of the local congregation, + letters to/from head office put me way over my head.
I was learning things I didn't know existed in Scripture.
I experienced the terror of questioning personal belief.

Your word "research" is the clue.
Pretty soon I will post some research that Greg Stafford, Jason BeDhun, Fred Coulter (CofG) have not refuted.

28

JW vs non-JWs

by 4examp in

hi, i'm brand new here.. how many real jws post here?.

4examp

"Smart cookie" might be one with an imbedded (chocolate) chip on-the-shoulder.

It doesn't matter to me how high up the ladder the poster gets.

28

JW vs non-JWs

by 4examp in

hi, i'm brand new here.. how many real jws post here?.

4examp

Excellent question.

Even though I dislike WT teaching on blood-ban, birthdays, etc.,
I would be compelled by honesty & integrity, to become a JW
-- IF wt teachingwas true to Scripture.

Mormon & JW teachings are different than the rest of "Christianity".
How woud I know if my upbringing was "Truth" or not?
(Father was Greek Orthodox. Mother was raised Roman Catholic.)Like-minded teachers, friends, family just reiterate what is already learned.
To me, it takes someone with an opposing view to test the strength & weakness of any belief.