Interesting question. I guess for some it may point to the non-dual concept of God, but if you're addressing Christians I'd assume the understanding is of a distinct and separate entity, yet prayer would be the connection. It seems to me the answer will vary depending on whether you are looking at things from the perspective of ultimate reality or phenomenal reality. I've heard it said that prayer is talking to God, and meditation is listening to God. It would seem that this can be explained as a human need, whereas from the perspective of ultimate reality it does make no difference, that human desires is just details if nothing else. I have the impression that time, free/human will vs. God's will all whirls around in there somehow, but I'm too lazy to finish the thought right now.
Introspection
JoinedPosts by Introspection
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Two Questions
by Yerusalyim ini have two questions, mostly for commited christians, though i'm sure somehow, that others will reply too.. 1) does prayer change god or his mind?.
2) if not, why pray?.
i have my own opinion on the subject, but i may be adjusting my understanding of god.. have fun!.
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One more question NOW with my answer
by Yerusalyim ingod tested abraham by telling him to sacrafice his son issac.
since god is omniscient (knows all, knows the end from the beginning) he already knew abraham would go through with it unless god stopped him.
what was the purpose of this test?.
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Introspection
Well, of course that can be applied to a number of things, the Genesis account for instance. I've actually heard the following argument on this point: God has the ability to know all things but chooses not to, as he is all powerful but does not exert that power over all things, and I guess that's basically how free will is explained too.
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Forgiveness
by Introspection inthis quote could have gone in another forum, but i'm hoping you can add a quote from caroline myss, stephen... "without forgiveness human society and existence are impossible.
we are forever hurting one another, forever stepping on one another's toes.
so we have to forgive and be forgiven or else we cannot go on living full lives.
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Introspection
Thank you for those words Crossroads. A coworker left a quote for me today, it is from The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. Now the part she pointed to was something else, but I wanted to share the two paragraphs that followed it as it has to do with forgiveness:
"It seems that most people need to experience a great deal of suffering before they will relinquish resistance and accept - before they will forgive. As soon as they do, one of the greatest miracles happens: the awakening of Being-consciousness through what appears as evil, the transmutation of suffering into inner peace. The ultimate effect of all the evil and suffering in the world is that it will force humans into realizing who they are beyong name and form. Thus, what we perceive as evil from our limited perspective is actually part of the higher good that has no opposite. This, however, does not become true for you except through forgiveness. Until that happens, evil has not been redeemed and therefore remains evil.
"Through forgiveness, which essentially means recognizing the insubstantiality of the past and allowing the present moment to be as it is, the miracle of transformation happens not only within but also without. A silent space of intense presence arises both in you and around you. Whoever or whatever enters that field of consciousness will be affected by it, sometimes visibly and immediately, sometimes at deeper levels with visible changes appearing at a later time. You dissolve discord, heal pain, dispel unconsciousness - without doing anything - simply by being and holding that frequency of intense presence."
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Emotional Stages of Leaving the WT
by larc insince there is a lot of emotion expressed on this discussion forum, i wanted to present a conceptual framework that might be useful.
elizabeth kiebler-ross studied the emotional state of those facing a terminal illness.
she concluded that those suffering this fate went through five stages: 1. denial (this can't true; i want a second opinion,etc.),.
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Introspection
.. in fact, it's been read 88 times so far, just not too many posts..
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Forgiveness
by Introspection inthis quote could have gone in another forum, but i'm hoping you can add a quote from caroline myss, stephen... "without forgiveness human society and existence are impossible.
we are forever hurting one another, forever stepping on one another's toes.
so we have to forgive and be forgiven or else we cannot go on living full lives.
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Introspection
This quote could have gone in another forum, but I'm hoping you can add a quote from Caroline Myss, Stephen..
"Without forgiveness human society and existence are impossible. We are forever hurting one another, forever stepping on one another's toes. So we have to forgive and be forgiven or else we cannot go on living full lives. To forgive is not to pretend that the wrong is not awful and hurtful. It is to accept it in all its awfulness and pain and to want to give the other person the chance to begin again." -Archbishop Desmond Tutu
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adultery in heart...does this exist ??
by Uni girl inhi everyone its me 'uni girl' since my wonderful expulsion from the rancid org, i have wondered what exactly is .
'adultery in the heart' and what constitutes proof of this.
it is the reason stated on my file for my ruin ha ha.
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Introspection
Well, of course the point of the teaching too was that it starts in the heart, the actual behavioral manifestation is only secondary, this is how I understand "self-control" to be a fruitage of the spirit.
I was actually a little surprised to hear your story, but I guess there are those who believe they can read hearts. It seems to me that the prevalent attitude is to deal with conduct once it manifests. I've only recently begun to appreciate how VERY few people have that level of discipline where they can actually control their mind, thus their thoughts before it even comes out in action, and there is just no way you're going to overcome something like natural sex drive by some kind of behavioral modification. Depending on your viewpoint and given our background, you might consider it imperfection, but I tend to see it as a type of incoherence. To have the mind, heart and body all working together smoothly is no small feat, and the way the organization teaches I doubt there's anyone that can claim any balance or mastery in that regard.
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Masturbation
by CoolBreeze inthe title of this thread was one of the stumbling blocks of my study.
as a single full time father(with no time for dating)of a soon to be tenage son this was a major point of imprt to me.
the point came up during a discussion on porneia(sp?).
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Introspection
Hi CoolBreeze, I don't really have an opinion about masturbation itself, but my own experience has been that I have developed MORE discipline over things like sex drive now than when I was in the organization. Of course, by discipline I don't mean that authoritarian repression, but self-discipline. I personally don't separate relationships from sexual need, so I guess in my case it isn't a matter of having an "outlet" as much as channeling the energy into other activities. As many have pointed out, it's really a matter of rigid thinking, accepting it just because someone who's supposed to know better said so. It could be about any number of issues. On that note, just because over 90% of the population masturbates it doesn't mean I have to, either.
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TIME
by stephenw20 indr. caroline myss: understand there are two types of time.
chronos time and kairos time.
chronos time is the time on your clock, the hour- to-hour, day-to-day time; its literal time.
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Introspection
Good stuff Stephen, I think many others agree with her especially when it comes to time. Where did you get that quote from? I have a set of tapes by Dr. Myss but do not own any of her books yet, I may have to check it out..
Seven, you can have my tapes for Why People Don't Heal if you want, I pretty much know what it says. There's no doubt more detail in the book, but the tape would give you a good idea of what she's all about, and sometimes just the basic principles can do a lot.
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Emotional Stages of Leaving the WT
by larc insince there is a lot of emotion expressed on this discussion forum, i wanted to present a conceptual framework that might be useful.
elizabeth kiebler-ross studied the emotional state of those facing a terminal illness.
she concluded that those suffering this fate went through five stages: 1. denial (this can't true; i want a second opinion,etc.),.
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Introspection
Good topic Larc, I gave this some thought and I guess one of the most obvious things might be that denial is the opposite of acceptance, and the other 3 steps is essentially the process. I suppose this doesn't necessarily have to be about death or the prospect of death, but in a way we are dying from moment to moment, not to mention that questioning our former belief system would negate the teaching of everlasting life for many. In any case, I suppose we can say it is a matter of dealing with some kind of loss..
As for the 3 processing steps in the middle - anger, negotiation and depression - I don't believe it is necessarily a sequence. I should note that I am also a person who doesn't keep track of the past in a linear fashion, I remember things but don't remember when it happend, and if you asked me about the order of events regarding my past I would probably only be accurate to 1-2 years. Nevertheless, I still think that for others it may also happen in parallel. For example, one may be experiencing depression throughout the stage of anger or negotiation, or both. I know this is true for myself, because for a long time I was processing this stuff but not on a conscious level, and the depression was always there.
Now as for the question of how to come to acceptance, I think it can in fact be easier than we think. Certainly, there can be no promises as far as time frame is concerned, but perhaps it is a matter of how we understand time.. (I should probably read Stephen's other thread first, but I can always reply to that one too ;) ) I believe the practice of meditation can really help. I recently did a 4 week Vipassana (insight) meditation retreat, and I have to say that I literally feel like a new person. The practice centers around the present moment, your experience right now - the thoughts that are in your mind, the body sensations you feel, etc. I'm no expert, but I think basically when you are not thinking of the past or the future, it allows you to concentrate on the matter at hand, and that does not necessarily have to be some external task to be performed. We live in the present moment, the person that experienced the trauma in the past is a different person, even if only to a small degree. The person we want to heal is also in the present, and it seems to me that often when we focus our mind on the present rather than the past, that itself takes a big load off our shoulders.
Of course, there's still the matter of processing all this stuff that we've been taught for so many years. I don't think the details of this process has to happen on a conscious level. There are times in my own life when I'm not even formally meditating, but perhaps just sitting quietly in a contemplative state, and insights just pops up in my head, out of the blue. Of course, everyone is different, and if you have issues on a conscious level you'd likely want to resolve it consciously too. I myself just had that heavy feeling in my heart through the years before I came to accept the fact that I am no longer a JW.
I couldn't comment on how one might consciously process the specific issues associated with leaving the organization as there are many and is no doubt different with everyone. I do have one observation that I think may be helpful though, and that is how we reframe our memories. I recall from my psych classes that memory isn't exactly a reliable thing, that often times it may not be very accurate depending on how we recall things. But I think the important thing is the fact that we CAN reframe it. We can choose to associate other emotions with the same memory. One way that I look at my JW history is seeing it as a learning experience. I find comfort in knowing that I'm wiser now and will not fall into the same trap again. While we may miss our friends and family who are still in the organization, I think another way to look at that is to recognize the value of those ties, but on an individual level we must realize how confused they are, too. Perhaps the lesson there is to appreciate the social and familial relationships we do have, but accept them for who they are and what they stand for.
It seems to me acceptance is really important in everyday life. We may live with someone who is absent minded, perhaps they leave their belongings around the house. Instead of just asking or expecting them to change, it would probably be wise to recognize that atleast for right now, that is just the way they are. Now that's a small thing that a lot people would no doubt put up with. But other things like the teachings and practices of the WTS are much bigger, and it is certainly unreasonable to think that they will change just because you ask them to, when you can't even get your kid to pick up their clothes. We must accept things as they are, because that is the truth of the matter. The other side of it is to recognize the truth about ourselves. If we're honest in both regards our course of action should be perfectly clear.
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Healing and meaning
by Introspection inthe following is by dean ornish, no doubt many have heard of him, he's the md who has the program for reversing heart disease.
i thought many of us would be able to relate to these words:.
"for me the epidemic in our culture is not only physical heart disease but also emotional and spiritual heart disease.
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Introspection
The following is by Dean Ornish, no doubt many have heard of him, he's the MD who has the program for reversing heart disease. I thought many of us would be able to relate to these words:
"For me the epidemic in our culture is not only physical heart disease but also emotional and spiritual heart disease. Think of how loneliness, isolation, and depression are so common, with the breakdown of the social networks that used to give us a sense of connection and community. This is where the suffering is the deepest and the healing the most profound. . .
"Healing is something that occurs in the spirit, a healing of the isolation that separates us from each other and our nature. We can make our world either a heaven or a hell; those who see the spirit in themselves and each other make the world a heaven. They discover how suffering can be a doorway for transforming their lives in ways that ultimately can make them not only healthier but also more meaningful."