Posts by Introspection

40

Have I changed?

by mommy in

jw
friends

as most of you know i am new to the world of the internet.

therefore i am new to the discussion board forum.

when i first entered simon's place, i did not fear to speak my mind.

Wendy, my guess is that you haven't really changed, but some posts on this forum just allowed you to see how you can react under such circumstances, and that makes you a step ahead of a lot of people who are still caught up in their cyber-drama. I think this is pretty common online, and it took me a while to learn not to take things personally online, because when it comes right down to it I don't know any of the people and they don't know me, unless I've been talking to them for a long time.

We've talked about this in some other threads on this board, but I think it's important to recognize that you are just reacting and not responding, because you're not going to break away from conditioning unless you see that first. As JW's we were taught to accept a set of doctrines and judge by that standard, without really giving much thought to the human element. Now I don't think we have to give up morality or our values, but I think the key is that it's important to distinguish between judging an idea and a person. Strictly speaking, all we have here are ideas, and quite frankly even though we have a lot more information to size up an individual in person we still don't know enough about them to judge them AS a person. This is not to say we close our eyes and pretend we have no idea of what kind of person they are, of course, but the point is to not get personally involved. Just imagine if a perfect stranger sent you a letter by snail mail, it's not addressed to you specifically and the content of the letter had some really nasty/stupid stuff which you disagree with. Can you see yourself corresponding with them to no end? It seems to me that would be just a bit silly and a waste of time, even though you may be a little curious. In fact, don't we call that stuff junk mail? So why is it any different online, even in a public forum? I can go into more detail on this because it's along the lines of the discussions we've been having in the Mental Health forum, but I think it can be summed up in one question: Is it worth your time and energy? The way we react to others can tell us something about ourselves, but certainly there's no point in letting it drag on when there is no meaningful exchange going on.

13

Facing JW-philosophy demons

by emyrose in

although i left jw's 7yrs ago.

i am now really starting to suffer emotionally and i .

think psychologically too.

Introspection

Hi Emy,

I think to understand judgement it's important to recognize that we have expectations. (I also recommend looking up the quote I posted in Mental Health under the Emotional Stages thread Larc started) We have these expectations on how things "should" be, which as you know may not even be correct, but in comparing people to these ideals we then become judgemental.

I can appreciate your frustration about people being selfish, because that does appear to be the case for the majority, most of the time. But to me, the reality of altruism and agape love is that you're really doing for both yourself and others. After all, you can't completely ignore your own needs in order to care for others, if nothing else there's the basic physical need for food, water, and rest. Even Jesus said it's a matter of loving your neighbor AS yourself. If you don't love yourself how can you know how to love others? I think this is where the logic of the golden rule gets twisted, because sometimes we judge ourselves thinking it reminds us of what we need to work on, so we do unto others as we have done to ourselves and judge them too. I think we also need to recognize how self-centered such thinking is, because we are judging others by OUR standards and perceptions. So I think there's truth to this idea that you have to love yourself before you love others, but the point is it allows you to relate and really have compassion for others. It's important to not twist this around too, of course, and become all self-centered in everything you do. But I think if we start looking at ourselves for a change, we'll see that we have the same faults that others do, and once we really see this we can forgive ourselves as well as others.

8

what where you looking for from the JWS

by stephenw20 in

i cant say i sought the jws out.

i had little choice , as my parents did the seeking, i hold them harmless, they did not investigate it beyond the wtbts pubs.. i did however at a point go it on my own, did the water dipping ore 1985 , so i feel, no allegiance to a group i vowed nothing to.. there was a point maybe 2 or 3 months when i felt i had a realtionship with god during my stint with the jws.

unfortuanately for me i lumped , god and them together and dismissed both together for a long time.. my question though to all here is this.

Introspection

Good topic Steve. In a word, what I was looking for is meaning.

I was not raised in the organization. The witnesses came to our door when I was in my early teens, and before I knew it my brother accepted a study and after having an enthusiastic talk with me accepted one for me as well. As it turns out he left years before I did, before he was actually baptized.

I rememeber having the sense that this is all interesting, but none of it was particularly attractive to me and I was one of those studies that dragged on and on, to the point that the one who studied with me got annoyed and basically said I need to move on to be a publisher and all that. The thing that touched me though was a study article about love, I think it covered 1 Cor 13. I also remember having questions like "Isn't it wrong to serve God just so you can live forever?" Well, to make a long story short that's pretty much what I believe in today, agape. So yes, I think the answer to the second question is that I did find it, yet I also keep looking for it. I believe that ultimately, this is a search within and not without. It seems to me that many become frustrated in searching for love outside themselves, but I think even if you find it you can't keep it, because the love that cannot be taken away is the love you have within yourself.

17

Emotional Stages of Leaving the WT

by larc in

since there is a lot of emotion expressed on this discussion forum, i wanted to present a conceptual framework that might be useful.

elizabeth kiebler-ross studied the emotional state of those facing a terminal illness.

she concluded that those suffering this fate went through five stages: 1. denial (this can't true; i want a second opinion,etc.),.

Introspection

I was reading an article about acceptance by Christina Feldman, an insight meditation teacher and thought I'd share it with you guys. She notes that 3 primary forces of nonacceptance are aversion, craving, and expectation. It seems to me that whereas Kubler-Ross' stages is intended to be a time sequence, this model describes the mechanics in more detail. For example, at the stage of anger, there is likely unmet expectations and maybe some aversion as well. The negotiation stage would seem to involve aversion and craving, some back and forth if you will. If you do go through those stages in a sequence, depression would seem to be a state where you just give up because the expectations are not met and you can't seem to get anything by negotiation. Here is an experience that Feldman relates:

"During my own journey I went to Thailand in order to practice meditation. I had very high expectations that the monastery would be an oasis of peace, respect, and wisdom. The reality was very different. When I finally ended up in a monastery where I decided to stay for awhile, I found myself noticing all the things that were wrong. There were monks who played the radio, monks who were standing around chattering all the time, ones who ate too much at lunchtime, and others who were quite unmindful. What I did not see, of course, were all the monks who were practicing sincerely, who were generous and kind, or who were incredibly silent. Because my expectations were being disappointed, I had this kind of tunnel vision. I did not have any time to meditate because I was too busy criticizing. I quite forgot why I was there, that I had gone to this place in order to practice, in order to cultivate peace. My intention was actually to be awake, but I forgot all about this.

"There is a story about a man in Aachan Cha's monastery who did exactly the same things I was doing. He kept complaining to Aachan Cha about why the monks were not better meditators, why they were not more mindful, or why they did not eat less. Aachan Cha said to this man, "You are like somebody that keeps chickens and then goes out in the morning and picks up the droppings instead of the eggs."

We have a tendancy to focus on the negative. This is not to say we should put up with the corruption of the organization, but I think that if we really think back to our experience in the WTS, we will remember some who are kind, some who were sincere in their attempt to be loving brothers and sisters, even if they are misguided. So why should we pick up the droppings instead of the eggs?

7

Sheep / Goat / Righteously Inclined / Meek Like??

by Big Jim in

jw
friends

this will probally sound like an elementary question but it is one that the wittnesses have never giving me a solid answer on.. are you born a sheep or a goat?.

are some born more righteously inclined?.

if the answer is yes, then why?

Introspection

Good point Simon. I think the question is just how does one measure righteousness? If we look at it through the lens of right behavior alone, you'd be missing the heart which I think is vital. Take for example a person with some kind of handicap, suppose they have a job sweeping the floor but are not very good at it, yet he gets the job done. Someone like that may not do it RIGHT, but they may put forth good effort and arrive on time, be devoted to their job despite their limitations. To me what is sheep like is recognizing that you don't know everything, or anything, really. A goat would be one who thinks very highly of his own opinion. Regardless of who is more correct, the one with humility will be open to learning, whereas the goat seem to characterize those who think they know it all... Isn't there a scripture that says there is more hope for the stupid one than someone like that?

13

Facing JW-philosophy demons

by emyrose in

although i left jw's 7yrs ago.

i am now really starting to suffer emotionally and i .

think psychologically too.

Introspection

Emy, Larc makes a good point. I think we all tend to be judgemental when leaving the WTS. There really isn't much thought involved either, it would seem we're kind of conditioned to feel aversion toward anything that is against JW doctrine. I think one thing that is helpful to bear in mind is that God looks at the heart, and while we can't read hearts it's good to look at people that way rather than their behavior, because morality is actually a relatively shallow way of looking at things. And as you say, God is love, and that's how we want to think isn't it?

15

Anyone from the San Francisco bay area?

by Introspection in

anyone from marin or sonoma county?

Introspection

Anyone from Marin or Sonoma county?

20

SMILE

by Gopher in

i found this old favorite song of mine.

take it for what it's worth.

a day-brightener, yes, a cure-all, no.. this beautiful song was used as background music in one of charlie chaplin's silent pictures over 70 years ago, which i believe was called "modern times".

Introspection

Here are the lyrics to a song I've enjoyed, it's not a song about joy but I appreciate what it has to say. It has to do with this matter of finding meaning I think. This is from the Pilgrim album:

Inside Of Me
by Eric Clapton and Simon Climie

The point on the water, there's a change in the air,
A vibe in the darkness but there's nobody there.
I look for the reason but there's nothing to see,
Just a hole in my memory where my mind used to be.

(Chorus)

Tell me why
Can I find no relief in my heart.
I reside
In a world that has fallen apart.

Out of my mind, baby, show me a sign, baby,
Show me a way to get back on time, please.
Where do we go, baby, how will I know?
Who holds the key, is it hidden inside of me?

But why should I worry and why do I care
When this road that I walk on is going nowhere.
I stand and I study every face in the crowd,
See the fear in their eyes, they must be thinking out loud.

Chorus

Scratching the surface, it all looks the same;
A world full of anger with no one to blame.
But who can I turn to? Who holds the key?
And who has the answer? I think it's inside of me.

Chorus

20

SMILE

by Gopher in

i found this old favorite song of mine.

take it for what it's worth.

a day-brightener, yes, a cure-all, no.. this beautiful song was used as background music in one of charlie chaplin's silent pictures over 70 years ago, which i believe was called "modern times".

Introspection

Hi Emy and welcome. I have to agree with Mark on the point about "never say never." While it is true that we cannot erase history, it is also true that the future is not set in stone yet. We take something away with us but it doesn't have to keep draining us, in fact I think it's fair to say that some have been empowered by the experience. I do agree with you that sometimes it is best to cry, not only can it be comforting but I think allowing ourselves to feel however we feel is an important part of healing.

8

Forgiveness

by Introspection in

this quote could have gone in another forum, but i'm hoping you can add a quote from caroline myss, stephen... "without forgiveness human society and existence are impossible.

we are forever hurting one another, forever stepping on one another's toes.

so we have to forgive and be forgiven or else we cannot go on living full lives.

Introspection

Here's another quote from the Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle:

This sounds to me like denial and self-deception. When something dreadful happens to me or someone close to me - accident, illness, pain of some kind or death - I can pretend that it isn't bad, but the fact remains that it is bad, so why deny it?

You are not pretending anything. You are allowing it to be as it is, that's all. This "allowing to be" takes you beyond the mind with its resistance patterns that create the positive-negative polarities. It is an essential aspect of forgiveness. Forgiveness of the present is even more important than forgiveness of the past. If you forgive every moment - allow it to be as it is - then there will be no accumulation of resentment that needs to be forgiven at some later time.

Remember that we are not talking about happiness here. For example, when a loved one has just died, or you feel your own death approaching, you cannot be happy. It is impossible. But you can be at peace. There may be sadness and tears, but provided that you have relinquished resistance, underneath the sadness you will feel a deep serenity, a stillness, a sacred presence. This is the emanation of Being, this is inner peace, the good that has no opposite.

-----
end of quote

This sounds a lot like my understanding of the "peace of God that excels all thought" ...