Posts by IslandWoman

30

Would Ray Franz be the President of the Watchtower if........

by IslandWoman in

jw
friends

if the governing body arrangement had never been implemented could ray franz have become the president of the watchtower after his uncle or henschel died?.

i believe in coc ray franz said that if knorr had been president the events of 1980 would probably not have turned out as they did.

so do you think it is possible that by now ray franz would have been the president of the watchtower if the gb arrangement had not taken place?.

IslandWoman

Minimus,

No. He was really not a major player. That's obvious by the circumstances he found himself in. He had no political base. That was obvious.

The "circumstances he found himself in" were a result of the creation of the Governing Body. Also, a "political base" was much more important in the GB than under Knorr, imo.

Becoming President of the Society does not have to be a political move, it can involve simply love for God and the brotherhood. I am not saying that is what motivated Knorr but it can be a motivation for some.

IW

15

Photos released for: Psychological Warfare?

by sf in

foxnews just stated that part of the release was "for psychological warfare".. if that is the case then the release will have the same, if not worse, psychological ramifications on u.s. children too?.

there is no way i want my child viewing this mindphuck bullkrap!!.

bush wants usa to see this...to make it clear....that if you go against him and his 'laws', you will too be 'deadmeat', as viewed in these photos.. this is sick.

IslandWoman

Skally,

If exposing the dead helps the Iraqis to move forward then I am for it. Not a pleasant thing but necessary to provide visible proof that the deed has been accomplished and these men are to be feared no longer.

Pictures of the dead in the news media are nothing new to Americans, we have been exposed to many, many pictures of war dead. At least this time it is the dead bodies of evil men rather than of innocent men, women and children.

IW

30

Would Ray Franz be the President of the Watchtower if........

by IslandWoman in

jw
friends

if the governing body arrangement had never been implemented could ray franz have become the president of the watchtower after his uncle or henschel died?.

i believe in coc ray franz said that if knorr had been president the events of 1980 would probably not have turned out as they did.

so do you think it is possible that by now ray franz would have been the president of the watchtower if the gb arrangement had not taken place?.

IslandWoman

Bradley,

If they wouldn't have done so I still doubt that he would have ever become President for he was already in an infamous position and wasn't a GB member at the time anyway.

I'm afraid you are missing the point of the thread which is that if the GB arrangement had never been implemented and Knorr had kept his position and authority (which would then mean that the GB would not have been around to put Ray Franz out) could Ray Franz have eventually become the President?

The implications of that are staggering for it might be presumed that Ray Franz would have attempted to turn the Society into a more Christ-like religion. As President with the same authority as Knorr wielded he could have accomplished quite a bit, imo.

IW

30

Would Ray Franz be the President of the Watchtower if........

by IslandWoman in

jw
friends

if the governing body arrangement had never been implemented could ray franz have become the president of the watchtower after his uncle or henschel died?.

i believe in coc ray franz said that if knorr had been president the events of 1980 would probably not have turned out as they did.

so do you think it is possible that by now ray franz would have been the president of the watchtower if the gb arrangement had not taken place?.

IslandWoman

Jst2lws,

Your comment goes to the heart of this great irony that has occurred in the Watchtower.

he was the reason that the gb arrangement took place. This change did not take place because a dissident corp member was looking for a chance to manipulate the political structure and take over. It took place because R Franz was seeking Biblical truth. Everything he stood for at that time was good and proper.

Ah, yes, Biblical truth. This is a noble cause indeed but when it comes to organizing a religious body the NT has fallen flat on its face for 2000 years. Ray Franz' attempt at turning the Society towards an organizational arrangement that conformed to the 1st Century Christians resulted in the ousting of Knorr and the eventual enthronement of men like Jaracz. The NT cannot be used to implement congregational authority, it does not work!

For those who believe the NT is inspired, the placement of elders and Governing Body members today should be viewed as an impossiblity. Why? Because no man today is given the Spirit as those men were in the 1st Century. There is no laying on of hands anymore, there is no obvious manifestations of God's spirit on any man today. The elder arrangement allows many incompetent men to lord over the congregation. While it is hard to find one good man it is impossible to find 5 or 10 spiritually fit good men in most congregations. The Elder arrangement patterned after the 1st Century did not work, in fact it has made things worse in the congregations because even where there are some good elders they many times are held captive by the bad and unloving decision making of the majority!

As for the Governing Body, it too is filled with men who may have been good pioneers or COs but are incapable of deciding policy or doctrine for millions of people. The problem with religious group control is that the group will act like water and find its own level, many times being dominated by those who are the strongest and most vicious, with the followers following and the opposers being silenced. Following the NT in religious organizational matters has failed miserably!

Who can say he would have caved in 10 or 20 years later to temptation to guide a lost organization the direction he thought to be right for the majority. But his writings and my personal experience with the man tell me he would have either rejected the appointment or accepted it to steer the org to freedom of conscience and person pursuit of spirituality.

Ray Franz did not voluntarily leave the Witnesses. Even after he saw all the evils in the Society such as the Milawi debacle etc., the unloving treatment of many brothers, his own dismissal from Bethel, the disfellowshipping of Dunlap and the others, Ray Franz stayed. He remained a Jehovah's Witness attending and participating in congregational meetings etc. and I believe he said he was even being considered for a position in the congregation he was attending. He made no mention that if offered he would turn it down, maybe he would have but in his book he did not say so. ( I would hope that if he had been given the chance to make positive changes in the Society as a President with all the authority Knorr had, that he would have remained and tried to help the publishers who are skinned and tossed about.)

Everything he stands for is not corporate spirituality but individual spirituality and freedom from corporate control. He was on this track before he left Bethel and that is part of reason he was thrown out.

This comment again goes to the heart of this irony. Adherence to the NT caused Ray Franz to initiate the Elder arrangement and the GB arrangement, but today there are no elders in a congregational format in his life. He remains a Christian without those congregational structures he promoted before.

The NT caused him to develop a system that was not practical and became even more destructive than the one he tried to adjust. The irony is that in an attempt to adhere to the congregational structure of the NT Ray Franz helped to invent the GB beast not a more Christ-like religion, this is one of the saddest things of all.

The failed Governing Body arrangement and the many times incompetent and vicious Elder arrangement are the products of the New Testament, the products of Paul's congregational arrangement something which has injured many including Ray Franz himself.

A side note, on the Commentary Press site there is an essay on the Holy Spirit. I don't know who wrote it (maybe Ray Franz?) but it is non-Trinitarian. It is a good essay, one which I recommend to other Christian exJWs who struggle with the question of whether the Holy Spirit is a Person in itself or not.

Thank you for your thoughts on this subject.

IW

30

Would Ray Franz be the President of the Watchtower if........

by IslandWoman in

jw
friends

if the governing body arrangement had never been implemented could ray franz have become the president of the watchtower after his uncle or henschel died?.

i believe in coc ray franz said that if knorr had been president the events of 1980 would probably not have turned out as they did.

so do you think it is possible that by now ray franz would have been the president of the watchtower if the gb arrangement had not taken place?.

IslandWoman

Hi Amazing,

I don't recall Ray saying that in C of C. But, I believe that the events of 1980 would stll have happened, because the weight of the old guard was to great to reverse course. Knorr was to soft. he liked ice cream, not fights.

In the chapter entitled, "Internal Upheaval and Restructure" (third edition) Ray Franz said this on page 87:

"In all fairness to Nathan Knorr, it must be said that he undoubtedly believed that the then-existing arrangement was the right one. He knew that the vice president, the organization's most respected scholar and the one he relied upon to handle Scriptual matters, felt that way. Knorr was basically an affable person, capable of warmth. When he was not in his president's "uniform" or role, I genuinely enjoyed my association with him. However, his official position, as is so often the case, did not generally let that side of him be seen and (again, doubtless due to his feeling that the role he carried out was according to God's will) he inclined to react very quickly and forcefully to any apparent infringement upon his presidential authority. People learned not to do this. For all that, I seriously doubt that Nathan would have gone along with some of the harsh actions that were later to come from the collective body that inherited his presidential authority."

****************************************************************

I had not read that page since 1999, but the sentence about Knorr stuck in my mind. He was President during my youth and I suppose that is why I remembered it. True, it says nothing about 1980 but I think it could be assumed that the events of 1980 may be among those "harsh actions" he refers to.

Also, from the above quote it does not appear that Knorr was soft and did not like fights, at least not at Bethel anyway.

Personally, I am glad it turned out the way it did, with Ray Franz where he is, doing what he does so well ... exposing the Watchtower for what it is. -

Well, I think that if Ray Franz as President could have caused the Society to become a gentler place it would have meant so much less grief to so many there. As for Jaracz, if there was no GB he would not have had any authority.

To my knowledge, the Governing Body concept was developed and promoted by Ray Franz.

The irony of that boggles the mind. The very arrangement he "developed and promoted" was the one that caused him, Dunlap and others to be put out!

Thanks for your input Amazing.

IW

30

Would Ray Franz be the President of the Watchtower if........

by IslandWoman in

jw
friends

if the governing body arrangement had never been implemented could ray franz have become the president of the watchtower after his uncle or henschel died?.

i believe in coc ray franz said that if knorr had been president the events of 1980 would probably not have turned out as they did.

so do you think it is possible that by now ray franz would have been the president of the watchtower if the gb arrangement had not taken place?.

IslandWoman

Hi Brummie,

In saying that I doubt he would have had a major inpact on doctrine since it was a 3/3rds vote thing. Yet at the same time, he couild well have influenced the rest of the GB for the better.

But if Ray Franz had been President as Knorr was President, with all the power etc., there would have been no worries about a two thirds majority. Knorr was the boss. If Ray Franz had inherited a similar Presidency he too would have been the boss.

IW

30

Would Ray Franz be the President of the Watchtower if........

by IslandWoman in

jw
friends

if the governing body arrangement had never been implemented could ray franz have become the president of the watchtower after his uncle or henschel died?.

i believe in coc ray franz said that if knorr had been president the events of 1980 would probably not have turned out as they did.

so do you think it is possible that by now ray franz would have been the president of the watchtower if the gb arrangement had not taken place?.

IslandWoman

Hi Bradley,

No, Ray would not have become President of the Society -- ever. Just think about it. Position, title, rank and "lording it over the flock" were exactly what Ray was trying to get the Society past. To take ont the position of President would have been the exact opposite of what he would have wanted.

As a member of the GB, Ray Franz had "position, title, and rank", what he was apparently trying to do is cause the Society to conform more to the scriptures and to brotherly love. I don't think he felt that a Presidency as such or a position of GB member would automatically exclude a man from being a Christian, otherwise he would not have taken the position on the GB.

Also, I don't recall reading where Ray says that if Knorr was president the 1980 fiasco wouldn't have occured. Where is that in the book?

No, I did not say "the 1980 fiasco wouldn't have occurred." I said that I believe he said it would have not turned out the same. As for the page and quote, I will try to find it.

Also, the GB arrangement was in place for years during which time there was also a WT president, yet you say: "...Ray Franz would have been the President of the Watchtower if the GB arrangement had not taken place?" Huh?

Prior to the GB arrangement the Presidency held the power, the sceptor of power was in the Watchtower Presidency. It is this type of Presidency of the Watchtower I am speaking of, the kind that Knorr had before the GB arrangement came and took away the real power of the Presidency.

IW

30

Would Ray Franz be the President of the Watchtower if........

by IslandWoman in

jw
friends

if the governing body arrangement had never been implemented could ray franz have become the president of the watchtower after his uncle or henschel died?.

i believe in coc ray franz said that if knorr had been president the events of 1980 would probably not have turned out as they did.

so do you think it is possible that by now ray franz would have been the president of the watchtower if the gb arrangement had not taken place?.

IslandWoman

If the Governing Body arrangement had never been implemented could Ray Franz have become the President of the Watchtower after his uncle or Henschel died?

I believe in COC Ray Franz said that if Knorr had been President the events of 1980 would probably not have turned out as they did. So do you think it is possible that by now Ray Franz would have been the President of the Watchtower if the GB arrangement had not taken place?

Think of the possibilities!!

IW

20

Governing Body - How did it come about?

by IslandWoman in

the governing body is a devilish clown.

it was bad enough when knorr was president but since the governing body came and in effect deposed him things have gotten progressively worse.. how exactly did the governing body come about?

they did not invent themselves, sure there was the board of directors but they did not have the kind of power the governing body has.

IslandWoman

Euphemism,

Island Woman wrote:
Are you saying that the Elder arrangement idea (and subsequently the GB authority) may have originated in the Writing Department?
I'm talking about the GB arrangement, not its authority.

Thank you for correcting my statement.

Apparently the change in congregational structure eventually brought down Franz, Dunlap and some others at Bethel. As I said before the only thing the elder arrangement did was put lots of little men in place of the one. The GB arrangement did the same. No good has come of either.

Too bad.

IW

29

Woke up this morning with a question on my mind.

by El Kabong in

jw
friends

i don't know why i woke up this morning with this question on my mind.

why would god make the angels first, which are superior to humans, then go and make something inferior, like humans second.

i would figure that the angels would be like 1.0 then the humans would be revision 2.0 or something like that.

IslandWoman

Hi El Kabong,

Great question!

Personally, I do not believe in angels, demons etc. I believe God makes physical things and has no need for other spirits to keep him company or to minister to him.

Who knows how many other earths God may have created out there in the universe and it's fun to imagine that one day we will all meet, when we are ready.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

IW