Posts by PSacramento

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

What is wrong with that argument if anything?

Indeed and that is why that particular argument, that God knows that the end result is better so He allows it, or God allows suffering because it brins people to Him, is IMO, not a very valid one.

One can argue that God KNOWS and that person above simply think so, but Ithat doesn't really address the issue.

There are many arguments that are made as to WHY they or anyone, should suffer BUT none of them are acceptable to the atheist and, to be honest, even to Christians that believe that God is a god of Love, because there is always this feeling that it just SHOULD not be that way.

I have struggled with these questions over and over and while I have come to many answers, acceptbale to a degree, they ALL fail when I return to the premiss that Cofty stated:

Everything Jesus said about loving others needs to be reconciled with this fact.

So I end up going to the one thing that is consistant with BOTH Theists and atheists alike and that is this:

We feel, we KNOW in our "bones" ( for lack of a better way of putting it) that it should NOT be so, that we feel that God SHOULD do something, that He should NOT allow such horrific acts, that He SHOULD do what WE would do, what we view ( base don His own teachings) as the RIGHT thing to do.

ALL people feel this, know this and my question is WHY?

As great as this thread is about addressing the problem the confronts Christinaity in regards to suffering ( other religions don't really have this problem by the way), to me and because of the years I have spent thinking about this very issue, it seems more fascinating WHY we do have this issue.

I will try to read thorugh this thread as much as I can.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

You have not actually addressed the case of the man. I assume you agree with me that his inaction in the situation would lead you to think he was unlikely to be loving or caring to all humans?

I would think him to be worse than that based on what I think he should have done, what I would have done, yes.

BUT what if ( and yes, it is a what if) we know that He knew that letting the child die would simply bring it to another stage of life far greater than this one, a life surround by a love beyond our comprehension, that the child would be reborn and that death of this child would serve a greater purpose for the child, NOT that he THOUGHT buty that not only did he KNOW but that HE made it possible for the child to have all that. Add to that that we would also KNOW that He was right?

We would see things very different of course BUT that is NOT the case now because ALL we know is that the child will suffer, it will die and for what? why? Because some asshole didn't give a shit?

Am I right?

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

Bohm, I can answer other than to say MAY simply because I do NOT know for sure.

Some will argue that as horrific as it sounds it has at leats at the end a end result that is worth it ( not sure if I agree since I have never been a fan of the end justifies the means) and will state that atheisim holds no such redeeming value and has no answer for the issue of suffering either.

If "Life just is this way" is accetable to an atheist then the atheist can't really fault the theist for stating that "God is just that way" either.

The arguement not being reasonable is because it is an eomotional one, we just KNOW that it doesn't sound right, it can't be right.

Yet, what do we base that emotion on? wht can't God be that way? why can't God knowing was is better for us than we do, do things the way He does? Why do we NOT want to accept that?

Why does it bother Cofty ( and you and me too by the way) that millions, billions have to die?

Because deep down we don't think it NEEDS to happen that way, yes?

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

I'm sorry I didn't realise you were a deist.

I am not, I am a theist and I believe that God created /set in motion the process of creation AND that He sustains creation and that He has equipped living organisims with the ability to survive.

I don't think He designed every living organisim or the universe in individual acts of creation, every moment in time from now to infinity.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

Thanks for that Bohm, I ask beacuse at times hving these discussions is very frustrating ( on both sides of course) because regardless of any reason given, the other will simply say " that isn't good enough for me", as if whether a reason is good enough or not makes it valid or not.

Some will argue that natural disaters are what they are because they must be, they must exist for the world to function the way it must ( indedependant of human life on this planet) and human must adapt, not the other way around.

Of course Cofty's argument of why did simply did not create a better world is a very valid one also, to which some would say "the bible doesn't state a perfect world, simply a good one, good for it's purpose" and it has been, if the purpose was to bring forth sentient life according to God's will.

BUT the issue of death and suffering when God CAN eliminate it leads us to the question of WHY doesn't he?

I don't know wheich positions have been rehashed here, but the one that I tend to lean towards is that suffering is crucial to the development of humans as beings who will eventually "be like god".

God doesn't see death and suffering like we do, He knows it is simply a small stage in our development and that NOT physical death is a true death, but simply a state of change of our material form, one the leads to a far greater "evolution" of man, with far greater rewards, more than we can even contemplate at this time.

This is of no comfort for those left behind to morn the death and suffering of loved ones and does this excuse God's inactivity in the face of suffering?

That seems to be an emotional issue, one of pain, that we do NOT want to suffer and do NOT feel we should if it is not our fault.

God's answer to this was to suffer with Us, die with Us in Christ so that we can all have the chance to see that God cares enough to suffer and die like one of Us and that the resurrection awaits for us all.

Does that answer the issue? No, I don;t hink it does because I myself dont' liek it very much BUT I am forced to accept that just because I don't liek that argument, doesn't mean that it MAY isn't valid and MAY be the way things are.

Does it suck? Big flaming balls BUT that said, IMO and based on my observations, humans tend to be at their best when they show compassion and what is compassion?

To suffer with others.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

Our issue seems to be that God is behaving in a away that is not consistant with what He demands of us.

God asks us to be responsible for our fellow man, but He is not responsibel for His own creation.

God asks us to help and to feed those in need, but God doesn't do that with His own creation ( argument for sustaining creation put aside for the moment).

God asks us to do whatever is possible for us to do to make the world a better place, not only to each other but the world in of itself, But God doesn't seem to be doing that for His own creation.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

More than that. God designed a world that would inevitably kill millions of it's inhabitants. It would have been trivially easy for him to design it otherwise.

God's is guilty of heinous sins of commission and omission.

I don't believe the world was designed, so...

psac: I am not sure i understand the first question, but my answer to the other questions are yes assuming I understand them correctly and we use the same definitions for the terms. What is your answer to my question?

I have to ask you a question first, much like the one that started this: Can you think of any answer to this question that would satisfy you? or even agree is a viable answer ( even if you dont' agree with it)?

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

So, what is evil and must be addressed is God's inactivity in the face of suffering caused by other than human agents, correct?

And the answer must be accetoable in regards to God being defined as a God of Love, correct?

Like the examples given, a human that could save a life and does not would be viewed as evil or at least criminally negligent, correct?

So God must be held to AT LEAST this measure since He is a self-described God of Love, correct?

Holding Him accountable to the very standard He hold us, yes?

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

Yeah, sorry, I don't wanna rehash things that have been addressed 100pages ago, sorry.

See, I diagree with the whole "natural evil" thing, so did quite a few of my professors BTW ( which put me at ease).

Evil is a funny thing, it must be define correctly to be used as a category and many tend to use it as something that is harmful or injurious or causes suffering BUT we know that isn't really a good definition ( certianly not a biblical one) since many good things can cause suffering ( certain therapies and treatments, pain that keeps us from doing something bad for us, etc...).

Evil is more correctly the consious doing of harm when no harm is need to be done, or something immoral ( though moral right and wrong is another issue).

I don't see natural disaters as evil since there is no active or intention to purposely harm or cause suffering.

A volcano explodes because that is what it does, is it evil if NO suffering happens? or only when suffering happens?

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

It would be presumtiouse of anyone to be black white, right wrong or something in between...thats arrogent.

You seem to be implying that it is arrogant for anyone to have an opinion, yes?