jws believe the book of revelation offers an account of what is to come in their lifetime.
but the problem is that every generation for the last 1900 years has thought the same thing.
and, every generation has been wrong, even though each new one thinks it will be about me and my generation this time.. most reputable bible scholars believe that revelation, also called the apocalypse of john, was not written to describe the future for people living today.
Like every book/letter in the bible, Revelation may have been written for Us ( believers) but it was NOT written TO Us.
It was typical jewish apocalyptic literature/genre.
While some of the lessons can be pertanent to Us now, most were aimed at the writers intended audience.
all believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.
go back one step.
what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .
Of course it does. The sun is not subject to man-made instruments, we can't travel there, we can't affect it, yet we can study it.
To a limited degree is, because it and it's effects are observable and part of our reality.
Could we study it 1000 years ago? how about 2000 years ago? 3000? to what degree?
How well do you think we will be able to study it 1000 years from now?
How much will our understanding of reality as we know it, change 1000 years from now?
i have seen debates and shizzle about god or not god etc etc.. i was even confronted by an aggressive and trheatening muslim in the street, who was angry that i wanted proof that god existed.
he ranted on a load of old b0110cks about 'hell' and stuff.
finally he yelled at me: 'do you want god to write your name in the sky?
PSac - But it doesn't - science helps us to understand the natural world better. It has never given any affirmation of the "supernatural".
And science probably never well make a comment on anything outside of nature and what is observable.
My point is that science can help us understand our world and universe and if they were created by God and sustained by God then in understanding them, we can understand at least that part of God.
all believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.
go back one step.
what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .
You are stating as fact something that cannot possibly be ascertained. In your own words..."Only man is so shallow as to think that He knows enough to make a comment on things He knows almost nothing about". You are doing the very thing you are complaining about.
Actually, nothing Terry or I are stating is fact, just conjecture.
I am stating that putting our understanding of reality on a being that isn't subject to it doesn't make much sense.
all believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.
go back one step.
what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .
All I'm asking you for is your substantiating argument, fact, reference, etc. that grants you "knowingness".
From where I'm sitting, Occam's Razor is a better argument.
You stated that God was creating before he created this universe because, according to you there was nothing.
My point is that your whole premiss is wrong because If there was a God before the universe was created, then there was SOMETHING and if God existed before THIS universe was created that means that another universe ( or reality or existence, pick your poison) was already in existence.
You said God couldnt' know anything before the universe came to be created, but that God himself existed and, we presume, God is self-aware, then, since God was all there was before THIS universe was created, God would knwo all there is to know about Himself.
From where I am sitting, you postulated that God couldn't have created anything before the universe because there was nothing before the universe, which is incorrect because , according to your view, God already existed before the universe He created.
all believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.
go back one step.
what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .
And that is the crux of your argument and also where it fails, you are subjegating a being from another reality to our reality.
If God is GOD then He is NOT subject to our reality, period.
Unless you grasp that, it's pointless to go on.
And at best we can only state that there is one universe and reality that WE KNOW of, it would be incorrect to state that THIS universe and THIS reality is all that there is, ever was and ever will be, no scientist would ever make that claim, certaibly not those that p ostualte the multiple universe scenario for example.
all believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.
go back one step.
what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .
God's attributes must attach to be accurate descriptions of reality.
Fine then, whos?
Whos reality must God be attached to?
Not ours because He existed before ours ever came to be.
His reality then? Yes, I agree, but what do WE knwo of His reality?
Our own understanding of OUR reality is every changing, our perception and understanding of our reality now, on Dec 12 2012 is far different than human understanding of reality on Dec 12 212 CE, and theirs was far different from Dec 21 2012 BCE.
Can you imagine what our understanding of reality will be in Dec 12 3012 ??
i have seen debates and shizzle about god or not god etc etc.. i was even confronted by an aggressive and trheatening muslim in the street, who was angry that i wanted proof that god existed.
he ranted on a load of old b0110cks about 'hell' and stuff.
finally he yelled at me: 'do you want god to write your name in the sky?
If God is GOD and the creator and sustainer of this universe then science will help us to understand Him better.
all believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.
go back one step.
what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .
You are using words. I can see that. But, you are not communicating meaning.
Sure I am, it's just that you don't understand and that is my fault because I am not relating to you what I think.
THe first thing you have to accept is that IF God is GOD then any "boundries" that our logic and reason have do NOT apply to Him.
Saying "I don't get it" or "I don't understand" or "That doesn't make sense" are comments on OUR limitations and nothing more.
To suggest that before God created THIS universe He wasn't doing anything is assuming that NOTHING existed before THIS universe came to be, thatis of course incorrect since GOD existed, which means HIS universe existed.
To suggest that before this universe came to be there was NOTHING anywhere else is based on what? Our sole perception that THIS universe is all there is and ever has been ( although some scientists are already postulating that is NOT the case).
In short, you are like I said before, pigeon holing God into what YOU think He can or can not do.
WHy?
it is little understood by christians what a difference there is between themselves and judaism especially on the matter of whom god forgives and why.. .
a christian expects to sin against many people in the course of their life, but proudly boasts that they aren't "perfect just forgiven.
" this is wrong by judaism's ethical, moral and theologic standards.. .
ITs funny because the Catholic Cathecism upholds the very goodness of creation and man:
God creates an ordered and good world
299 Because God creates through wisdom, his creation is ordered: "You have arranged all things by measure and number and weight." 151 The universe, created in and by the eternal Word, the "image of the invisible God", is destined for and addressed to man, himself created in the "image of God" and called to a personal relationship with God. 152 Our human understanding, which shares in the light of the divine intellect, can understand what God tells us by means of his creation, though not without great effort and only in a spirit of humility and respect before the Creator and his work. 153 Because creation comes forth from God's goodness, it shares in that goodness - "And God saw that it was good. . . very good" 154 - for God willed creation as a gift addressed to man, an inheritance destined for and entrusted to him. On many occasions the Church has had to defend the goodness of creation, including that of the physical world. 155
