Posts by PSacramento

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

You're shifting the argument, moving the goalposts. You said suffering could be useful if it helped develop compassion. No one said compassion wasn't a valid trait, but that the method of developing compassion ALSO created incompassion, so the method was clearly faulty (also it killed 250,000 people, so there's that).

Now you are judging the method of developing compassion, which is perfectly fine and accetable, BUT that is a different issue.

If the method used to create/develop compassion is not 100%, then why is that? and what method would guarantee compassion to be developed 100% without infringing on a persons right to NOT be compassionate?

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

Or misfortune. Not just suffering. You're ignoring half of the definition.

In any case, God, in omniness, created the very conditions that caused the suffering. It's STILL ALL HIS RESPONSIBILITY. You are completely ignoring that. It's like saying an abusive father always buys his child an ice cream after the beating, so some good comes out of the beatings.

No, the issue is the desire to alleviate the suffering caused ( if it be by misfortune is not really relevant to the issue of suffering existing).

As to your statement that it is still all His ( Gods) responsibility, yes I agree.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

I think I've demonstrated that I am listening. I am not as confident that I have been heard.

Perhaps not, I apologise if that is the case.

Can you explain your view again?

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

An observable verfiable fact? Citation, please. Please explain how, when I see a puppy at my local no-kill shelter that is fed, played with, given cet care and has toys and a warm place to sleep, I still feel compassion and want to take it home.

By its very defination, compassion requires suffering to exist, see the dictionary citation above.

Even IF there no compassion without suffering, your argument is self-defeating. If there were no suffering, then there would be absolutely no need for compassion. The thing you say suffering helps us develop is ONLY needed because God allows the suffering his plans caused! You're right back to failing to connect the dots!

Doesn't seem you understand the argument...compassion is needed to fully develop humans to God's greater plan/purpose.

That some people choose to NOT be compassionte in the face of suffering does not change the fact that there is no compassion without suffering.

You've still not explained how the lack of compassion after suffering isn't a valid counterpoint.

The lack of a trait in some people does NOT invalidate the trait, that is like saying that because some people are dishonest the triat of honesty is not valid.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

No heaven, no compassion in heaven or suffering in heaven?

Not, that is a very good question.

If there is no pain or suffering in Heave, does that mean that Angels don't have any compassion?

It might explain alot of what is written in the bible it seems.

BUT, I am not sure that is warranted based on what is written in the bible.

There is free will in Heaven and we know that angels are not only able BUT willing to rebel against God, so that means that there can exist pain and suffering in heaven BUT it may be that it is only the type that is willfully applied ( no "natural" disasters for example) BUT I am just specualting.

I really dont' know for sure.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

I posted the definition of compassion before, but in case it was missed:

com pas sion

noun 1. a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.

compassion

/ kəmˈpæʃən / noun
1. a feeling of distress and pity for the suffering or misfortune of another, often including the desire to alleviate it Word Origin C14: from Old French, from Late Latin compassiō fellow feeling, from compatī to suffer with, from Latin com- with + patī to bear, suffer Com= With/together Passion = Suffering

11

People Believe Jehovah Is A God Of Love Because He Is A Bully

by frankiespeakin in

yes the god of the bible has done his share of being a murderous bully(according to the mythology found in the book), his holly motto seems to be through out: "do what i say or i will kill you".

of coarse cringing christian's because of their fear of the deity will proclaim that all these acts of slaughter that the bible ascribes to god as an act of love, and chime in with approval and superlatives when 1john 4:8* is read.

and i atribute it mainly to god being a bully in the bible and threatening to kill every one not having faith in him.. 8 l anyone who does not love does not know god, because m god is love.. .

PSacramento

I think the bible is a fascinating read.

It is NOT a book but a collection of books and letters.

It is a theological-historical account of a people.

It was written by man for man at the specific time and to deal with the specific issues at the time, directed to specific people.

Written FOR us, yes, but NOT written TO US ( and that is an important element to never forget).

One of the interesting things is that it does NOT give a nice picture or even a consistent picture of God, which is strange if it was simply written by man to control man ( as some suggest). It seems to give as a progressive revelation of God, a God that humans try to put human traits on so they can relate to ( never a good idea but impossible not to do of course), a God that ( according to Christianity) is ONLY FULLY revealed in His incarnate Word, Jesus Christ.

50

Question for the nonbelievers and atheists

by nykid in

what specifically made you stop believing in god and the bible?

was it a steady road of doubts or it was reading one book or one major event that made you realize the bible was not what it's claimed to be?.

.

PSacramento

Have you read the arguments counter Bart's arguments?

There are quite a few of them...

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

Your argument was that suffering can increase compassion. If it can also decrease it, in what way is point NOT a valid argument? What did they teach you in school?

No, my argument was that there is NO compassion without suffering, which is a fact.

That some people choose to NOT be compassionte in the face of suffering does not change the fact that there is no compassion without suffering.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PSacramento

As a non-believer I still find the whole concept of human sacrifice and blood offerings as payment of 'sins' completely alien to the concept of justice, divine or otherwise... this is without touching on the 'sins of the father debate'. Surely the only person that should be punished and\or make recompense for the 'adamic sin' would be Adam? I always struggle to understand why so many are so willing to accept that a third party can absolve them of their sins or make up for the original - nowhere else would they ever accept such a concept. If the mother of a murderer offered to sacrifice herself on account of her son's wrong doing to allow her son to walk free - would that be justice?

That really is a whole different thread...

But, in a nutshell:

There is NO FREE ride to heaven ( though there is to hell).
Christ's sacrifice was done because NOTHING that humans could do could atone for their sins, why?
Because when we do something with an ultior motive, the act is tainted and when dealing with SIN, it actually makes it worse.
See, Man chooses to be defiant of God, to "do their own thing" and, of course, they make a mess of this and then they try to fix things with God NOT by doing what is right BUT by doing what THEY THINK is right TO GET SOMETHING out of it. God knows our intentions, He knows why we do what we do, He KNOWS why YOU are doing what you are doing.
He is willing to forgive you because He loves you and He has shown that love by THE act of self-sacrifice.