Posts by dgp

7

Will the relatively increasing number of non-American, non-white witnesses have an effect on the Watchtower?

by dgp in

on another thread ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/post/edit/12/4103481) i asked what the watchtower corporate ladder would be like, and whether brothers from non-english speaking countries could conceivably make it to the governing body.. as a result of the answers i got, i thought that, if i understand things correctly, most witnesses around the world basically live in three countries: the united states, mexico and brazil.

since real growth is happening mostly in brazil and mexico, rather than the us, i would expect that, sooner or later, the relative weight of brothers from those two countries would need to show.. whoever manages the watchtower in either sao paulo or mexico city (which are ranked eighth and ninth largest metropolitan areas in the world, according to the wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/list_of_urban_areas_by_population) has much more real weight than the branch overseers in several european countries (according to the same source, moscow is the largest metropolitan area in europe, and it has seven million fewer people than either sao paulo or mexico city).. what do you guys think?

can you speculate whether this will have an effect?.

dgp

I posted this on another thread, but I think it's appropriate to post it here as well.

Just as a comment: When Napoleon invaded Spain and Portugal, the king of Portugal took his court to Rio de Janeiro and continued to rule his overseas empire from there. During that time, Brazilians got used to being the center of the empire. They were certainly the largest and most prosperous part of it. When Napoleon left, the king of Portugal decided to go back to Lisbon, and had the curious idea of trying to get Brazilians to get used to their old status as one colony among others. It didn't work out, and Brazil eventually came to declare its independence, with no other but the king's own son as "emperor".

The problem was that the king of Portugal couldn't understand that his empire was the sum of the many parts. In his mind, Portugal was the head, and all others the subordinates. If only he had been smarter, his own power would have grown.

I think the WT has the same view of itself. It sees itself as an American institution. I sincerely hope they never realize that such a time is already a thing of the past.

I understand that Julius Caesar and Alexander did understand that their respective empires were the sum of many peoples and traditions, but their old guards, those that originally made them great, refused to be one among equals with those they saw as barbarians. I have the feeling that this will happen as well with the WT.

19

Does anyone know what the Watchtower's corporate ladder would be like?

by dgp in

i was wondering if anyone knows how a brother would make his way up to the governing body.

in my (worldly) opinion, there has to be something like a corporate ladder to climb.

does anyone know what the "procedure" would be?.

dgp

Thanks to all for posting.

Just as a comment: When Napoleon invaded Spain and Portugal, the king of Portugal took his court to Rio de Janeiro and continued to rule his overseas empire from there. During that time, Brazilians got used to being the center of the empire. They were certainly the largest and most prosperous part of it. When Napoleon left, the king of Portugal decided to go back to Lisbon, and had the curious idea of trying to get Brazilians to get used to their old status as one colony among others. It didn't work out, and Brazil eventually came to declare its independence, with no other but the king's own son as "emperor".

The problem was that the king of Portugal couldn't understand that his empire was the sum of the many parts. In his mind, Portugal was the head, and all others the subordinates. If only he had been smarter, his own power would have grown.

I think the WT has the same view of itself. It sees itself as an American institution. I sincerely hope they never realize that such a time is already a thing of the past.

I understand that Julius Caesar and Alexander did understand that their respective empires were the sum of many peoples and traditions, but their old guards, those that originally made them great, refused to be one among equals with those they saw as barbarians. I have the feeling that this will happen as well with the WT.

23

25 ATTRIBUTES OF A CULT - How does the WTS rate?

by cantleave in

this list is taken from a college course called the psychology of fundamentalismoffered by the university of texas.

1. the leader is charismatic and often militaristically demanding.

2. the leader is always right.

dgp

The fact that Jehovah's witnesses do not live in the same area has often been used to say that it's not a cult. I would say that it's a more insidious one: the control is more subtle and refined, which makes it worse.

7

Will the relatively increasing number of non-American, non-white witnesses have an effect on the Watchtower?

by dgp in

on another thread ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/post/edit/12/4103481) i asked what the watchtower corporate ladder would be like, and whether brothers from non-english speaking countries could conceivably make it to the governing body.. as a result of the answers i got, i thought that, if i understand things correctly, most witnesses around the world basically live in three countries: the united states, mexico and brazil.

since real growth is happening mostly in brazil and mexico, rather than the us, i would expect that, sooner or later, the relative weight of brothers from those two countries would need to show.. whoever manages the watchtower in either sao paulo or mexico city (which are ranked eighth and ninth largest metropolitan areas in the world, according to the wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/list_of_urban_areas_by_population) has much more real weight than the branch overseers in several european countries (according to the same source, moscow is the largest metropolitan area in europe, and it has seven million fewer people than either sao paulo or mexico city).. what do you guys think?

can you speculate whether this will have an effect?.

dgp

Sorry I missed Nigeria .

I know the WTS is not a democracy. Religions are not democracies; at best, they claim to be theocracies. But one would assume that the Lord would make no distinctions, and, if more and more of its faithful are not white Americans, it will be increasingly harder to hold that none of the other brothers should have real power within the organization.

The Catholic Church is not a democracy either, but John Paul II recognized the simple fact that half of his followers were in Latin America. I speculate this also had to do with their future growth. I understand the Catholic Church very much wanted to promote the idea that more young men should become priests, particularly in Africa, and their having a black pope would have helped them immensely. A black pope would have had a more direct connection to Africa, just as a Latin American pope would have a more direct connection with Latin Americans.

For something like 500 years, all the popes were Italians. That changed with John Paul II. Benedict XVI was considered "the natural sucessor", but the list of the "papabili" included Francis Arinze (Nigeria), Darío Castrillón (Colombia), Iván Días (India), Claudio Hummes (Brazil), Carlo María Martini (Italy), Giovanni Battista Re (Italy), Oscar Andrés Rodríguez Maradiaga (Honduras), Antonio María Rouco Varela (Spain), Jaime Lachica Sin (Phillippines), Christoph Schönbron (Austria), Dionigi Tettamanzi (Italy) and Jean-Claude Turcotte (Canada), plus Ratzinger himself (Germany). As you can see, there was plenty of representation from around the world.

My speculation is that the Watchtowerology (for lack of theology) would need to change as well. It would also be necessary to change the approach to the needs of an increasingly diverse community. Growing up "spiritually" in Brooklyn would be too little real world experience.

52

The Dog that did not bark: Jehovah's Witnesses' greatest mystery

by Terry in

'the dog that didn't bark' is an expression from a sherlock holmes mystery.

it was an important clue that led to identifying the criminal.. it seems that the killer entered and left the estate grounds one night but without the guard dog barking an alarm at the intruder's presence as expected.. from this nonevent holmes reasoned that the dog must have known the killer and that clue led to solving the case.. .

jehovah's witnesses are "the dog that didn't bark.".

dgp

Bookmarked

7

Will the relatively increasing number of non-American, non-white witnesses have an effect on the Watchtower?

by dgp in

on another thread ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/post/edit/12/4103481) i asked what the watchtower corporate ladder would be like, and whether brothers from non-english speaking countries could conceivably make it to the governing body.. as a result of the answers i got, i thought that, if i understand things correctly, most witnesses around the world basically live in three countries: the united states, mexico and brazil.

since real growth is happening mostly in brazil and mexico, rather than the us, i would expect that, sooner or later, the relative weight of brothers from those two countries would need to show.. whoever manages the watchtower in either sao paulo or mexico city (which are ranked eighth and ninth largest metropolitan areas in the world, according to the wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/list_of_urban_areas_by_population) has much more real weight than the branch overseers in several european countries (according to the same source, moscow is the largest metropolitan area in europe, and it has seven million fewer people than either sao paulo or mexico city).. what do you guys think?

can you speculate whether this will have an effect?.

dgp

On another thread ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/Post/Edit/12/4103481) I asked what the Watchtower corporate ladder would be like, and whether brothers from non-English speaking countries could conceivably make it to the Governing Body.

As a result of the answers I got, I thought that, if I understand things correctly, most witnesses around the world basically live in three countries: the United States, Mexico and Brazil. Since real growth is happening mostly in Brazil and Mexico, rather than the US, I would expect that, sooner or later, the relative weight of brothers from those two countries would need to show.

Whoever manages the Watchtower in either Sao Paulo or Mexico City (which are ranked eighth and ninth largest metropolitan areas in the world, according to the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_by_population) has much more real weight than the branch overseers in several European countries (according to the same source, Moscow is the largest metropolitan area in Europe, and it has seven million fewer people than either Sao Paulo or Mexico City).

What do you guys think? Can you speculate whether this will have an effect?

By way of comparison, it was only under John Paul II that Latin Americans had a real chance of ever electing one of their own as Pope. I understand that Honduran cardinal Óscar Rodríguez Maradiaga stood a very good chance, but they elected Benedict XVI instead. Some time ago, rumor had it that John Paul II had a preference for Bernardin Gantin, a black cardinal from Benin.

19

Does anyone know what the Watchtower's corporate ladder would be like?

by dgp in

i was wondering if anyone knows how a brother would make his way up to the governing body.

in my (worldly) opinion, there has to be something like a corporate ladder to climb.

does anyone know what the "procedure" would be?.

dgp

Well, I like the illustration .

So the pecking order is as follows:

GOVERNING BODY!!!

F & DS (my emphasis: false and deceitful simpletons)

LEGAL ENTITIES

BRANCH

DISTRICT

CIRCUIT

SENIOR BETHELITES

COBE

ELDERS ON SERVICE COMMITTEE

ELDERS

JUNIOR BETHELITES

SPECIAL PIONEERS

MINI SERVS

REGULAR PIONEERS

AUXILARY PIONEERS

PUBLISHERS

DEAD DOGS

PUBLISHERS WHO NEED HELP

SINGLE SISTERS

NEW ANNOINTED NOT ON GB

The link to the Wikipedia says that

The Governing Body continues to directly appoint branch office committee members and traveling overseers, [62] and only such direct appointees are described as "representatives of the Governing Body." [63] [64]

I kind of suspect that these are the guys who really matter from an organizational point of view. These are the belts that transmit orders and make sure they are enforced.

In my experience, in all organizations there is a formal organization chart, and a real one. In the real one, for example, I assume that a circuit overseer in, say, Brazil, is actually more important than the Branch Officer in, say, Iceland. Whatever their anointed status.

And I see there's a lot of patience involved as well.

As to our imaginary Brother Faisal, this is kind of a tricky thing for the Watchtower. If my understanding is right, most witnesses around the world basically live in three countries: the United States, Mexico and Brazil. I would expect the Brazilian and Mexican brothers to have a say in how affairs are conducted. They would sort of claim that, for example, whoever manages the Watchtower in either Mexico City or Sao Paulo (second and third largest cities in the world) has much more real weight than the branch overseers in several European countries. And most of those guys don't speak English either.

19

Does anyone know what the Watchtower's corporate ladder would be like?

by dgp in

i was wondering if anyone knows how a brother would make his way up to the governing body.

in my (worldly) opinion, there has to be something like a corporate ladder to climb.

does anyone know what the "procedure" would be?.

dgp

I was wondering if anyone knows how a brother would make his way up to the Governing Body. In my (worldly) opinion, there has to be something like a corporate ladder to climb. Does anyone know what the "procedure" would be?

Also, would it be technically possible for "anyone" to climb to the top. I don't think they could claim that only the anointed could make it, since we know that some of them are already not of the anointed. Would, say, Brother Faisal, who endures every possible kind of persecution in Indonesia, really be able to lead the Watchtower someday?

23

25 ATTRIBUTES OF A CULT - How does the WTS rate?

by cantleave in

this list is taken from a college course called the psychology of fundamentalismoffered by the university of texas.

1. the leader is charismatic and often militaristically demanding.

2. the leader is always right.

dgp

I would say that the Watchtower is now one step ahead of other cults in that it does not (anymore) have one single "enlightened" leader, but a caste, and a system is in place to bring new ones into the caste. Technically, then, "anyone" can make it to the top. When it's only one individual who controls everything, then his is the fault for everything, and this individual "neutralizes" (kills) every potential competitor, so that the organization dies when he dies; but when it's several individuals, then no one is to blame for anything personally, and, as in George Orwell's 1984, "the party" becomes "immortal". It's not Lenin or Stalin anymore, but the Politburo.

By the way, I'm glad that such a course is taught in universities. Other people will learn to spot cults.

138

My Father passed away during the night

by jwfacts in

dad was a great man, great, despite the religion.

he was powerful, tall and intelligent, yet humble and kind.

he was an introvert, and a circuit overseer.

dgp

I am so sorry to hear about your loss.

If children are the reflection of their upbringing, and the personal qualities of parents, then your father was a very fine man.

May he rest in peace.