Posts by simon17

118

"Look it wasn't a global flood.."

by Qcmbr in

i've heard the statement from bible apologists so many times that the global flood story of genesis was not a global flood but was probably a local flood.

this seems problematic.. this directly disagrees with the bible.

everywhere the bible internally references a global flood of worldwide scale (i'll throw in matthew 24:39 as a nt example and genesis 6:17 as a ot example.

simon17

Those are some weak arguments PSac.

The wording of the Genesis account CLEARLY indicates that all humans and animals and the entire world was destroyed by the flood.

Jesus talks about how "everybody" and "all" the people were swept away in a flood. And he is referring to an account in which the WHOLE WORLD was flooded.

It is very clear what he is speaking about and referring to by these statements.

What you are suggesting is that the Genesis account is inaccurate (although inspired?), that Jesus came and invoked this inaccurate account to describe a future event giving most people a misimpression, but while technically not saying something to contradict the actual true version of the Genesis account (a local flood) that only he and heavenly entities know about (and which a few geologists would eventually figure out 2000 years later).

Seriously, who is putting words in someone's mouth here???

104

Help me make sence of William Lane Craigs nonsense

by bohm in

jw
friends

today i tried to read a transcript of a debate william lane craig had a few years back.

this particular argument which i have heard him give many times stumbled me for all the wrong reasons.

the argument is as this: (http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-smith_harvard02.html).

simon17

If a people cannot establish that a certain behavior choice is actually harmful it wisely must avoid demanding people abstain.

I'm just going to jump to devil's advocate here: The phrases "cannot establish" and "actually harmful" is going to be a lot of trouble for this sentence:

* Based on a bunch of opinions on the matter, society "cannot establish" that manmade global warming is true or not. But there is an absolute truth as to whether global warming is true or not (even if can't agree on it). So lets suppose manmade global warming IS true and is a major problem: then it would NOT be wise to say "do whatever you want"

* Also what IS "Actually harmful"? Harmful to who? The universe in a cosmic sense? Sentient creatures in the universe? Humans? Living things on the earth? The well-being of life-supporting planets like earth?

Is genocide "actually harmful"? Well it doesn't seem like a good thing by human standards in our society. But overpopulation and exponential growth are a MAJOR problem to society that will face us in a few years. Increasing the death rate in some way might be one of the most helpful things to the longterm stability of the planet and human family.

.... In short, if you're going to take this position against objective morals, you have to go all the way. I see a lot of people debating WLC that will recoil and say that Hitler was absolutely evil. You can't crawl back to "oh, this seems really bad so it must BE absoultely bad" at any time... Bad in our current society and evolutionary development is the best we can do (which is still a relatively strong position; just not the absoultely strong position that people want to be when discussing Hitler and rape and whatnot)

118

"Look it wasn't a global flood.."

by Qcmbr in

i've heard the statement from bible apologists so many times that the global flood story of genesis was not a global flood but was probably a local flood.

this seems problematic.. this directly disagrees with the bible.

everywhere the bible internally references a global flood of worldwide scale (i'll throw in matthew 24:39 as a nt example and genesis 6:17 as a ot example.

simon17

The case about a global flood is this:

Jesus believed in it and spoke of it. If I reject the flood, then I reject Jesus. That is why I take an all or nothing approach to the Bible. When you begin to throw out 1 part, you end up having to throw out the whole thing.

Just saying: Earlier in this thread you were amazed how people find the FDS is not true and then reject the Bible. That is not at ALL how it happens. Instead, you've just described how it happens. You start researching various aspects of the Bible like the flood, like the creation account, etc etc and you can't just eliminate one thing. Once you remove one domino, all the rest quickly start to fall. And if you go in and remove... 10 dominos, well the whole gig collapses quite quickly.

So you can really have two choices: It says what it says and I believe every word. I cannot accept a world without God so I cannot consider any evidence contrary to the Bible.

Or you can say: I'm going to examine everything with an open mind. If something doesn't check out, then I'm going to eliminate it and face the consequences.

104

Help me make sence of William Lane Craigs nonsense

by bohm in

jw
friends

today i tried to read a transcript of a debate william lane craig had a few years back.

this particular argument which i have heard him give many times stumbled me for all the wrong reasons.

the argument is as this: (http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-smith_harvard02.html).

simon17

What do the scriptures say?

How do you read them?

Irrelevant to my position. I've already stated my opinion that there is no objective absolute morality. To me the scriptures represent a subjective morality of the time, some of which has survived until our day and some of which has not. YOU are the one claiming absolute morality, so I would like to know what your stand on those issues are.

104

Help me make sence of William Lane Craigs nonsense

by bohm in

jw
friends

today i tried to read a transcript of a debate william lane craig had a few years back.

this particular argument which i have heard him give many times stumbled me for all the wrong reasons.

the argument is as this: (http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-smith_harvard02.html).

simon17

God is the ultimate judge of what is moral and not moral and His judgment is based on conformity or lack of conformity with His character.

So perhaps you could enlighten us with some specific examples of objective morality. For the following, please tell me if it is a) absolutely and objective bad; b) absolutely and objectively good or c) depends on the situation (i.e., subjective).

1- Homosexuality

2- Abortion

3- Slavery

4- Genocide

104

Help me make sence of William Lane Craigs nonsense

by bohm in

jw
friends

today i tried to read a transcript of a debate william lane craig had a few years back.

this particular argument which i have heard him give many times stumbled me for all the wrong reasons.

the argument is as this: (http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-smith_harvard02.html).

simon17

Simon17,

If your son asks you, "Is rape really wrong?" are you going to say, "It depends on who you ask. Cosmically, it's insignificant" and then talk about societal disadvantages and the lack of evolutionary advantage that would come from allowing rape?

Or are you just going to say, "Yes, son, rape really is wrong"?

What I tell my son is irrelevant.

To answer your question anyway, of course I'm not going to tell a little kid what I just typed. Just like people don't tell their children the gory details of "where do babies come from." Just like even adults make up stories about where the dead go and how happy they are and such. Just because we lie to little children or to ourselves about what we would like to be true or what we feel should be true... it doesn't make it true.

Beyond that, in our society, the way we have developed it IS wrong. So there is actually not an inconsistency in my saying to a child that rape is wrong. Is it an absolute TRUTH that rape is wrong? That I can't say, but it doesn't effect one iota of how I function as a human being.

104

Help me make sence of William Lane Craigs nonsense

by bohm in

jw
friends

today i tried to read a transcript of a debate william lane craig had a few years back.

this particular argument which i have heard him give many times stumbled me for all the wrong reasons.

the argument is as this: (http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-smith_harvard02.html).

simon17

Why can't we just say there are no objective moral values and be done with it?

Is rape wrong? Why can't I say "it depends on who you ask. In the cosmic sense, the act of rape may not be a significant thing one way or another. However, rape causes emotional suffering. From an evolutionary standpoint, it does not benefit a group to cause suffering and pain among members of your own species. So nature has taken most of the inclination to think of rape as "positive or good" out of our genetic makeup. In addition, our society cannot function if rape were allowed. We consider it illegal and we physically remove rapists from society (perhaps even killing them). So based on societal and evolutionary preferences, rape is a bad thing to do."

Is it possible to have a people that consider rape acceptable? I don't know. Civilization existed a long time with slavery as an institution. We currently live in a society that breeds countless animals into a life of torture, hopelessness and execution. I'm sure there are civilizations which could be envisioned which would consider that "objectively morally wrong" and yet we do not.

WLC would probably consider homosexuality to be objectively wrong in God's view. And yet society is changing its view on that, even though it was a cursed thing for thousands of years, perhaps viewed AS BAD or WORSE than rape. So even what humans "think" is an objective value might change.

I argue that there are no objective values.

69

Could ''boredom'' at the Kingdom Hall be one reason why some members leave?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

you'll find boredom where there is the absence of a good idea earl nightingale quotes (us motivational writer and author, 1921-1989).

let's forget that most members leave due to the wrong beliefs,doctrines and practices of the wts!.

i was bored out of my mind from the repetitive: talks,prayers,ministry school demonstrations,field service talks(peddle magazines),assemblies,special talks and watchtower magazine study articles.

simon17

So I must say...GO BACK TO THE 50's! There is no room for you here in the future!

Sounds like James Earl Jones in Field of Dreams...

(And you probably dont even know who i am but nice to see you back)

69

Could ''boredom'' at the Kingdom Hall be one reason why some members leave?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

you'll find boredom where there is the absence of a good idea earl nightingale quotes (us motivational writer and author, 1921-1989).

let's forget that most members leave due to the wrong beliefs,doctrines and practices of the wts!.

i was bored out of my mind from the repetitive: talks,prayers,ministry school demonstrations,field service talks(peddle magazines),assemblies,special talks and watchtower magazine study articles.

simon17

It seems like they go out of their way to specifically make things AS BORING as possible. We used to have some brothers who were either very animated or would do comical things on Tuesday nights, or have parts that they dressed up to promote some theme. Those parts I remembered years more than the dry parts (and not just because they were cool -- i remembered the messages too). But they got talked to and had to stop. I dont really understand that. THese people would have asked MLKJr to read "I have a Dream" in more of a monotone ,seriously... its crazy.

42

The Power of Prayer......Do you believe in it?

by confuzzled777 in

my sil has been fighting stage iv leiomyosarcoma (which in incurable) for over 2 years now.

there have been quite a few ups and downs in her treatments and her prognosis along with way.

she is a full time pioneer and has been since shortly after her diagnosis.

simon17

Nope. I believe at best it has a 'placebo' affect for those who do believe in it.

Well a placebo effect has been shown to have a very significant effect physically/medically speaking. I would bet the effect is even LARGER in the emotional/mental sphere.