Posts by simon17

41

Opinion-Is This Clear Evidence that Jehovah's Holy Spirit is with The Watchtower?

by DavinciCodeBreaker in

jw
friends

i was having a discussion with an aquaintance about if there was evidence that the watchtower has jehovah's holy spirit.

he said, "given the fact that no other organization has won more supreme court cases than jehovah's witnesses to protect their religious freedom in north america and abroad is unrefutable evidence of jehovah's blessing by means of his holy spirit".. your thoughts?.

simon17

The above posts show the clear logical fallacy in this argument.

To add to that, suppose the JW's had a very poor record in the Supreme Court and faced difficulty in excercising rights in the USA. What would a JW say then? "Clear evidence of the persecution that Jesus foretold his followers would have to face, giving clear evidence they are God's true organziation."

In short, EVERYTHING gives evidence to what the JW wants to believe. Ex:

* Terrorist attacks or economic turmoil? The predicted terrors of the "Last Days". Clear evidence the end is close.

* Nations make progress to end a war or terror organization, etc? The predicted Peace and Security seems just around the corner. Clear evidence the end is close.

* Christendom changes their policy on something? Clear evidence they are in spiritual darkness and blind guides for the masses.

* JW's changes their policy on something? Clear evidence they are JW's pure organization with which he lets the light get brighter.

* Christendom's #'s increase? Many will go through the wide and spacious road to destruction. Clear evidence they are not God's approved organization.

* Christendom's #s decrease? Clear evidence that they provide a spiritual wasteland that is losing power over its peoples.

* JW's activity #s increase/decrease? Same arguments reversed. God is brining many to his pure organization / persecution gives evidence of God's approval.

So... its a stacked deck with these arguments. Everything points to the same thing

126

A simple way to tell God probably doesn't exist

by poor places in

when's the last time you prayed to god?

did he respond?

i prayed to him for years and years and received no response.

simon17

FHH: People who have prayers answered aren't special. I hear a saying quite often: "Everything happens for a reason." I sometimes think that life is like a game of Tetris: everything has to fit together. We don't understand now why someone dies and someone lives. I think one day we will. And who says we of the living are better off anyway? Maybe those that have passed on feel rather sorry for those us still struggling here.

Thats just very convenient to say. Many people claim god answers their prayers with promotions and money and opportunities. You are saying God doesn't operate like this. So are you saying those people are dillusional and God really ISN"T operating in their lives, even with them being so sure?

And then you still insist that he does answer YOUR prayers. Just on important stuff. But then have the audacity to say that other people (say a HIV kid or a starving child in Africa or a sex slave living through repeated rape as a teenager) are not having their prayers answered becuase maybe they're better off for it?! So yes, I think its very fair to say what is so special about you that you get your prayers answered?

126

A simple way to tell God probably doesn't exist

by poor places in

when's the last time you prayed to god?

did he respond?

i prayed to him for years and years and received no response.

simon17

Yet it should be noted that no human in existence truly knows what it would be like to live in a world where God is obvious and everyone serves him the same (kind of sounds like a dictatorship to me). There's no reason to believe that the "God in the clouds" approach is the best one to take.

So what does that mean? That society would be worse if everyone knew who God was and served him? That doesn't make sense. That's like saying if a city's police force never was visible. They were rumoured by some. There were legends they once the police had arrested and prosectued some criminals. But there was no proof they really operated, then or now. Some people believed and tried to behave lawfully. Most didn't and made the place a mess. But don't criticize the police force for being absent, if they really existed. Maybe things would be worse if they actually made their presence known. Maybe the police really do punish people but we aren't able to hear about it. Maybe the police are secretly manipulating the lives of the criminals to make them internally regret the horrible conditions they are causing and are secretly helping out the law-abiders in indetectable ways.

Its nonsensical.

48

religion only to do with belief?

by Curtains in

jw
friends

as jehovahs witnesses we were taught that the truth (belief) unifies every aspect of our lives and is of paramount importance.

are other like religions like this also?

do they emphasize belief to the same extent?.

simon17

Religion is all belief and faith.

Except people in religions usually will say that their belief is based on facts and evidence.

The only things is that its the type of facts and evidence that basically no one else agrees with.

98

Is it ethical to make rich pay more taxes?

by Lore in

jw
friends

i'm having trouble getting behind the idea of making rich people pay more taxes just because they have more.. aside from the obvious: "i'm not rich so lets tax them instead of me.

" the three reasons i hear most often are:.

1: they may have "earned" their wealth but they don't deserve it!.

simon17

Another way to look at it is that rich people have

a) More to lose &

b) More means to exploit opportunities

So perhaps they owe more to the government that protects and serves them then someone living in the inner cities with nothing in the bank account and really no means of taking advantage of all that America has to offer.

A third reason is, and this may not necessarily be ethical, but poor people NEED their money more. Maybe they don't deserve it per se, but taking an extra 10% from a rich person, where that say $100,000 is going to mean they can't buy a new ferrari vs. taking 10% from a poor person where that $3,000 means they cant pay their rent is a major difference.

36

Bad day in Athiest/Jehovah's-Witnessville

by Nickolas in

jw
friends

bear with me for a day or two, ok?

if i don't vent a bit i'll leave gray matter spontaneously spattered all over my office walls..

simon17

Agree with some that this is a pretty flimsy reason for breaking up. I would say this relationship wasn't meant to be if having to sleep in sepearate rooms for a weekend unravelled everything. Honestly, JW's are not the only one that would not want their child and unmarried companion sleeping together in their house when they visit. So I don't think this is even a JW issue. If saying "while we're with our parents we're going to respect their wishes" is a major problem, its best they broke up now.

Sorry your son is down about it though. Moving on always hurts.

28

The magazines didn't used to be so dumb and boring

by Lore in

jw
friends

here's an excerpt from this weeks watchtower study in 1950: .

*** w50 6/15 p. 180 a victory dedicated to jehovahs honor ***.

the strategy, and the attack.

simon17

How many years has it been since a WT article used a (real) word that you would have had to look up? Probably decades.

"reconnoitering"??? Never heard that one before. yes the old articles were lightyears ahead of the new articles in both style AND substance.

37

Logical Questions to Make Them Think?

by sweet pea in

this has no doubt been covered before and if anyone has any favourite threads on this subject perhaps they could post them here .

what are your best one liners/questions to make jw's think?.

i had a heated conversation with my mum this weekend and apart from mainly going round in circles (as is often the case with brainwashed cult members) one thing made her stop and i could see that she was having major trouble processing the logic.

simon17

"If Jehovah has had one organization on earth since the days of the apostles, why didn't Brother Russell find it and join it?"

"Does this mean Jehovah now has two organizations?"

Yes, but they are overlapping

(Duh ... )

16

Running into a brick wall- conversations without logic

by Joey Jo-Jo in

i had this experience with a family member, lets say you say something against the witnesses doctronic and they dont say anything back, you ask them why are you not replying and they say "well you dont believe in us anymore".. what should i say back, something that wont offend them but goes straight to the point, you see they dont want to use their brains, they just want to listen at their halls about the end and apostates and how special they are and how false the rest of the world is and how they are the only true religion that follow the commandment to preach.

but it does not matter what i say, doesn't matter how big it is it seems to have the reverse effect, it was alot easier before but now a conversation comes which they dont like they shun my conversation, yet they show me love, they dont touch whats the big issue, the big problem which is communication, and they maybe expected me to wake up, go back to the hall like nothing ever happen, like preaching is only for people who like what they hear.

im babling on but you get the idea.. .

simon17

yet they show me love, they dont touch whats the big issue

What is the big issue? That you insist that they convert to your beliefs? They don't want to.

The big issue is that they show you love and you do the same. The most important thing in your relationship is fine. Leave it at that and try not to bother them so long as they extend you the same courtesy.

81

Belief in God: What were the difficult aspects and questions you had.

by designs in

two main one's for me were god being capricious and serendipitous..

simon17

The Bike not a good example. A stove is a better one I think.

We have to touch the stove. My 15 month old hasen't touched anything scalding yet, but I am waiting for it to happen. It's not like I am going to watch him touch the stove and then ask him what he learned I will make attempts to save him from himself, but that seems like the wrong thing to do.

So if your 15 month is about to stick a fork into an electrical socket, same logic applies? How about if he is about to run in front of a bus? How about if he is about to drink down some ammonia? How about put his hand in a wood chipper? Sit back and let him learn from the pain?

Does the kid need to have those things happen so he learns not to get electrocuted or poisoned or crushed or chopped up? No. You can teach him about the dangers and, in most cases, you will successfully get him to avoid them. You can do the same thing with the stove. Like you said, you absolutely will not just let him scald himself. You'll try to stop him. Because preventing pain is the name of the game. And most likely he will learn without ever scalding himself. I never had to learn to not touch the stove by touching it. It would be cruel to sit there and watch your kid get burned to "teach him a lesson" and as much as you want to invoke the analogy to provide some mental justification to God allowing suffering on some very trivial example of pain (like a skinned knee or a minor stove burn), you KNOW that even that is something you won't do as a parent. Its not right. And when you scale it out to more significant examples like in my first paragraph, the illustration because as morally apalling as the WT's "God is like the teacher letting the student give a chance to explain to the class his insistence on the wrong way to solve the math problem"