Posts by simon17

67

Read S. Hassan's Book: Do JW's really fit the cult mold?

by simon17 in

first time i got a chance to read his book, "combatting cult mind control" and was interested to see if jw's fell into the cult mold.

my opinion after carefully reading and having left the witnesses after almost 30 years is... no, they don't.

however, i would add that they wish they were but are simply too big and unwieldy to really pull it off.

simon17

OUTLAW,

I appreciate your dislike of the witness organization. But you're twisting words to make the witnesses fit every thing in that book and its just simply not correct (whether they are a cult or not, and I'm open to either). FOr example, when I say I've never personally been asked for money, you say

" Thats BS and you know it..

Money is asked from Kingdom Hall and Assembly Hall Stages all the time..

Who do you think their asking,your neighbour down the street or you?"

Is that PERSONALLY me being asked for money? Does anyone ever know if I contribute or not? So no its not BS. No one has every asked me PERSONALLY for money or asked if I've been donating. And no one ever knew. Asking a group of thousands of people for a donation is simply that. I get asked in that manner for money from Red Cross and a ton of other commercials about various causes. I get asked for money PERSONALLY from my school, from my local fire department and ambulance core. NONE Of these are coercing me to donate or judging me if I don't.

If you think the Witnesses are out of line in the frequency or method in which they ask for donations, then either your circuit operates COMPLETELY differently than mine or you are truly blinded by hatred.

Its clear we're not going to agree much on this topic so I won't bother addressing your other points. I dont like the way this organization operates but I believe I will try to be fair on what points they are wicked and cultish (i.e. disfellowshipping), what points they are wrong (i.e. 607 BCE), what points they are like any other benign religion or organization (i.e. donations), what points they deserve protection under the 1st ammendment for (i.e. public house to house ministry), and even what points they are admirable (i.e. I won't even mention one lest you jump me for it).

67

Read S. Hassan's Book: Do JW's really fit the cult mold?

by simon17 in

first time i got a chance to read his book, "combatting cult mind control" and was interested to see if jw's fell into the cult mold.

my opinion after carefully reading and having left the witnesses after almost 30 years is... no, they don't.

however, i would add that they wish they were but are simply too big and unwieldy to really pull it off.

simon17

Simon17, have you ever read ANY other books on the subject of cults????

I already said I haven't. I have no problem if other people (or other books define them as a cult). It may very well be true. At the least I find them a high control group as I stated. I just don't see that this particular book is very convincing of putting witnesses among cult status. Which is why I don't think I recommend it as a tool for witnesses to "come to their senses" as much as other books I've read because I think most people (especially JWs) will read that book and find that witnesses don't really fit THAT BOOKS' description of cults.

67

Read S. Hassan's Book: Do JW's really fit the cult mold?

by simon17 in

first time i got a chance to read his book, "combatting cult mind control" and was interested to see if jw's fell into the cult mold.

my opinion after carefully reading and having left the witnesses after almost 30 years is... no, they don't.

however, i would add that they wish they were but are simply too big and unwieldy to really pull it off.

simon17

JW`s: keep to themselves unless they are preaching or going to work or school..

Which, if you read the book, is exactly the thing that S. Hassan says cults prohibit their members from doing.

:are physically and mentally tired..

Blah, thats a baseless overgeneralization. I know a lot of people who are stock-brokers or laywers or doctors who are a lot more exhuasted. And I know a lot of people who are more relaxed than the typical JW. And vice-versa.

:Are humiliated on a daily basis Door to door or in WBT$ settings..

Thats extremely weak. Its also not at all what Hassan was talking about in his book.

:The WBT$ is always asking for money..

Like any church. I would argue less than most churches. I have never personally been asked for money in my 30 years as a JW and no one ever knew if I contributed or not. That is very unlike the cult experiences that the book describes as universal among cults.

:JW`s worship the WBT$ GB

Well I'll disagree with you there as well. Most witnesses don't know who the GB are and wouldn't know them if they stumbled past them in the street. They are controlled to accept the GBs decrees, and hence I'm strongly inclined to say JWs are a high-control group. But the nature of this worship is nothing like what Hassan describes in his book as the nature of cult leaders

:JW`s go to 5 meetings a week to listen to the same WBT$ crap over and over..

Though more than most churches that time commitment is minimal compared to Hassan's descriptions in the book. And seriously...5 meetings? Lets drop that nonsense and note that its 2 meetings a week.

Again, I'm talking about the description of cults in S. Hassan's first book. Perhaps he's revised his notion and definiton of a destructive cult since then, and maybe Witnesses are best categorized as such. And I think everyone here would agree to their controlling nature. However, just because you don't like the organization doesn't mean that every cult related description must fit Witnesses in every way. We can still be rational and objective in our dislike.

67

Read S. Hassan's Book: Do JW's really fit the cult mold?

by simon17 in

first time i got a chance to read his book, "combatting cult mind control" and was interested to see if jw's fell into the cult mold.

my opinion after carefully reading and having left the witnesses after almost 30 years is... no, they don't.

however, i would add that they wish they were but are simply too big and unwieldy to really pull it off.

simon17

Hi simon17, why did you focus on the techniques used to control people instead of the BITE control model and the universal themes that organizations that use mind control have in common that are described in Combatting Cult Mind Control?

I agree with OnTheWayOut and other posters that the WTBTS is a dangerous cult. The WTBTS just uses different techniques than the Unification Church to indoctrinate people into being JWs. The way that JWs conduct bible studies is a prime example of indoctrination (subtle but effective). If a bible study does not progress as planned in 6 months or less, the JW will drop the bible study in a heart beat.

Would you agree that the WTBTS uses mind control by evaluating the practises of the WTBTS with the 10 universal themes of organizations that use mind control? If the WTBTS uses mind control and uses the BITE control model to control the behavior, information, thoughts, and emotios of its members, how can you believe that the WTBTS is not a dangerous cult?

I would agree the WTBTS is a controlling organization, playing with guilt and fear techniques. I guess what I was after is that this particular book is often recommended as a great thing to get Wtinesses to read if possible because it doesnt ever mention JWs.

From reading the book, I got the imrpession that many of the aspects he noted to be almost universally true in all cults did not fit the witnesses at all. From reading the book, I would not have gotten the impression that Hassan (at the time of its writing) would have labelled witnesses a cult. Therefore I don't think its a very good tool for bringing witnesses to self-awareness because they will be even more likely to see the distinct differences between the physical realities of a cult as described in the book and their own organization. Yes, there are some things that are similar, but that is probably true of any religion.

As I said, I would describe the WTBTS as a high control group myself. I think the common conception of a cult by most people is not similar to what is pictured by witnesses although many of the effects may eventually be the same.

67

Read S. Hassan's Book: Do JW's really fit the cult mold?

by simon17 in

first time i got a chance to read his book, "combatting cult mind control" and was interested to see if jw's fell into the cult mold.

my opinion after carefully reading and having left the witnesses after almost 30 years is... no, they don't.

however, i would add that they wish they were but are simply too big and unwieldy to really pull it off.

simon17

And how can you say they have no constant fund-raising efforts? Members contribute for the literature and go out and try to collect money for the literature on a regular basis. Money is donated at the Hall and at the assemblies.

I'll disagree with you on this. I don't think the witnesses are fundraising any more or less than any mainstream religion. Honestly, its probably less. Maybe it depends on your territory but in the decades of field service I never once asked for a donation and maybe saw a partner I was working with ask for donations maybe... a handful of times.

Of course this is after the changeover to free magazines. Before that was a different story. Anyway where I was there was very little pressure to donate and it was all annonymously done anyway so no one knew that i ver rarely donated anything. I felt a lot of pressures as a JW, but financial was never one of them.

You quote a lot of things from the book which are similar to witnesses (i've referred to these). Like I said, the WT wishes it had full control and does try to implement what you said. But every time Steve Hassan physically described what the physical result of the cult atmosphere is like was contradicitory to the JW way of life and their organization. Things like sleep deprivation, not accepting or converting elderly or mentally ill people, kicking out those that are sick, making members financially dependent on the group, etc etc. None of those things (and there were many) fit the mold of "destructive cult" as he defined it IN THAT BOOK. Maybe things have changed with his opinion, as touchedon in the post above.

67

Read S. Hassan's Book: Do JW's really fit the cult mold?

by simon17 in

first time i got a chance to read his book, "combatting cult mind control" and was interested to see if jw's fell into the cult mold.

my opinion after carefully reading and having left the witnesses after almost 30 years is... no, they don't.

however, i would add that they wish they were but are simply too big and unwieldy to really pull it off.

simon17

I met Steve Hassan this past summer and had a very interesting conversation re JWs/cult definitions. When he wrote CMC, he had very little knowledge of JWs. In fact, because of their size and integration with society, he would not have considered them as "fitting the mold."

Thats pretty interesting. I've read very little about cults and I heard this was the preeminent book of its type. I was more or less saying that the witnesses do not really fit the mold of cult as described in the book (whereas many people have seemed to say that when they read the book their jaw dropped at how similar it was). I didn't find that at all. I certainly do see the controlling nature of things, however, and if S. Hassan has revised his opinion or definition with later experience I'd be interested in reading that new thought. Thanks for the interesting responses.

67

Read S. Hassan's Book: Do JW's really fit the cult mold?

by simon17 in

first time i got a chance to read his book, "combatting cult mind control" and was interested to see if jw's fell into the cult mold.

my opinion after carefully reading and having left the witnesses after almost 30 years is... no, they don't.

however, i would add that they wish they were but are simply too big and unwieldy to really pull it off.

simon17

First time I got a chance to read his book, "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and was interested to see if JW's fell into the cult mold. My opinion after carefully reading and having left the Witnesses after almost 30 years is... no, they don't. However, I would add that they wish they were but are simply too big and unwieldy to really pull it off.

I think its an interesting case because very little of the physical cult experience described in the book fits a typical witness (no physical isolation, no sleep deprivation, no public humiliations, they don't seem to have the right type of money hungry charismatic cult leader, no constant fundraising efforts, no chanting/hypnosis/etc, etc etc. Reading anyone of the many case studies in there fits what I would generally have pictured as a cult. The Witnesses don't fit any of that.

However, its also the case that most of the mental aspects of how a cult gets people into their drapped physical existence is very similar to the Witnesses, if not exact (attempted information control, attempted behavior control, attempted emotional control, attempted thought control, no acceptable exit, guilt/fear tactics, etc etc etc).

But ultimately, the Witnesses do NOT have physical control over their members. Most members still go home and spend about 160 of the 168 hours of the week on their own away from the group if they please. Now at best, the GB sends out the message trying to ask or guilt people into behaving like a cult member in the 95% of the time they are away from the Kingdom Hall, but thats impossible. Witnesses are too free and outside direct control that asking them to control it all themselves is, for most, a losing battle. They're trying: higher education, friends, workplace flirting, TV, video games, music, sports, clubs, Internet, dating, movies, sex, alcohol, drugs, and on and on. If they had a way to actually control all these things they would probably do it, but its not feasible with such a large group. Some people take it all in and burn themselves out police themselves, but almost every Witness I've met is willfully failing at being controlled in some of these aspects. The traditional "police state" experiences of cults is there when with Witnesses, sure, but there is just too much time Witnesses are out of that police state.

Some other aspects in the book make Witnesses sound cult like. They call their doctrine "The Truth" and while they take this more seriously than most, every religion does the same. Ultimately, I would say they are no more a cult than... Islam.

I will agree maybe with the term "high control group" maybe more than cult.

33

They're getting soft...

by simon17 in

jw
friends

so i had my second random jw visit since i left.

the last time i was sick and couldn't really talk back but i was pleasant enough.

i took the magazines, but they never returned.. attempt #2: a father with his poor miserable looking son.

simon17

So I had my second random JW visit since I left. The last time I was sick and couldn't really talk back but I was pleasant enough. I took the magazines, but they never returned.

Attempt #2: A father with his poor miserable looking son. He goes through a 10 second presentation and asks me a question, "Do you think the Bible has practical advice for us today?" I went to answer and provoke a discussion but before I said a word he put his hands up and said "Don't answer, just read these magazines" and left.

What the hell!?!

30

What is the WT's current stance on the age of the earth?

by popcorn_eater in

the reason i ask is i remember reading quite recently, in i think an "awake" mag about creation, that other churches confuse people by insisting on young earth creationism, which causes people to lose their faith.

the magazine was going off on groups and churches who insist on teaching science that conflicts with the bible (....).

i thought the wt was a proponent of this young earth creationism as well.

simon17

They basically will not contradict that it will be 4 billion years old.

But mostly they say ridiculous things like the earth could very well be "thousands of years" old. Thats like saying the sun may very well be many feet away from the earth or something.

71

My mom and dad told me that I'm an apostate and that they want to 'limit their association' with me!!!

by Joliette in

jw
friends

a series of events led up to an arugment with my parents last night.

my mom and dad told me that they found my videos that i was doing on youtube, and they told me that i was an apostate.

they said that they would help me if it was an emergency, but other then that, they didnt want anything to do with me.

simon17

Good advice, but I giggle a little when I try to imagine them agreeing not to talk about their beliefs in public. They wouldn't get their time in!

True by that I meant basically not promoting their beliefs around the person who doesn't share them (in this case Joliette). And by using a public forum I meant more of using mass media like she did. Obviously you're not going to stop them going from door to door, and in the end, why should we care what they do anyway. As long as we can agree to not batter each other with our ideas.