sd-7

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Posts by sd-7

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  48

  May’s ‘study WT’ admits having taught “far-fetched” ideas

  by wheelwithinwheel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  not on the front page, not in the study articles, but carefully camouflaged in the questions from readers on page 18 (watchtower march 15, 2015).

  you can bet most jws wont even read it..

  there is no apology...just the usual excuses..

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  sd-7

  This article will have no meaning to most JWs other than a curious sort of history. Its implications, however, are potentially HUGE. I'm talking practically any of the various teachings they've held to, including 1914, could be demolished by the very argument they're using here.

  After all, given that the Bible doesn't clearly identify the Kingdom/God's sovereignty as an antitype of the giant tree in Nebuchadnezzar's dream, we need not conclude that the seven times were anything but a lesson to humble Nebuchadnezzar. Of course they'll never use the argument this way, but they could. It gives them an out, and all they have to do is use it whenever the right time for it (ie. when it's most useful to their purposes) arrives.

  The curious thing is, that while they specifically mention some examples of antitypes they used, they DO NOT include references/footnotes to the overwhelming majority of the articles they mentioned. (So the average JW is not going to bother trying to look them up.) Instead of going into detail about what the Watchtower articles specifically said, they preferred to use outlandish examples from Origen, Jerome, etc. People who were NOT Jehovah's Witnesses, who were members of 'Christendom'. Given that such men's ideas would be considered as decidedly false, that tells you a lot about how such 'antityping', to coin a word, is being viewed here.

  And it goes even deeper than that. Not limiting a particular story's meaning to just the anointed also potentially paves the way--at least in theory--for making major changes to this two-class system. The great crowd are already domestics, a place previously held by anointed. This could--could--be used to justify some other imaginary 'privilege' being assigned to the great crowd, like actually considering them as 'God's children' as well, for once. Not likely, but still possible.

  So rather than admitting their own teachings were "far-fetched", they use that term about Christendom's writers (the aforemention Origen/Jerome/etc.), thus deftly avoiding calling attention to their own religion's obviously outlandish teachings. It was a bait and switch. They were talking about their own literature, but then changed the subject under examination to false religious teachers. If you're paying attention, though, this can be summed up by saying "Fred Franz was a false religious teacher, and that's why we don't teach what he taught anymore." Fascinating. It's a great read, if you're up for a laugh.

  Wow. Times really are a-changin' in Watchtowerville. These guys might even approach the same zip code as admitting a mistake one day. ... Naaah!

  --sd-7
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  53

  questions

  by DanielC in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  i've been dating a jw girl for about 4 years and we've recently had a lot of issues with the fact that her family doesn't like that i'm not a jw.

  i've been looking into the religion and am interested in it.

  but is it wrong to join just so i don't lose her?

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  sd-7

  It looks like this question has been well-covered. I'll just say, from personal experience, that you will have a choice to make. She will never love you more than her beliefs. She will throw you under a bus for them. You can choose her beliefs if you want, but that, and that alone, will be the only reason she will ever claim to love you.

  You're wasting valuable time, unfortunately. Let her go no matter how painful it may be. Better to do so now than to suffer later. Trust me. I know. Your life is mostly ahead of you. This girl will leave you behind in a heartbeat.

  --sd-7
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  1

  Today's Text: Nothing is permanent--especially not real estate, know what I mean?

  by sd-7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  "do not be loving the world or the things in the world.

  "--1 john 2:15. wt comments: "satan's system seems to be permanent and real.

  nevertheless, one day it will come to an end.

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  sd-7

  "Do not be loving the world or the things in the world."--1 John 2:15

  WT comments: "Satan's system seems to be permanent and real. Nevertheless, one day it will come to an end. Nothing that Satan's world has to offer has permanence."

  Not sure if there's an unspoken juxtaposition here: if Satan's system seems permanent and real, then Jehovah's system seems...unstable, in a state of constant change, and unreal? And if nothing Satan's world has to offer has permanence, then that explains the need for all those excellent Watchtower real estate deals worth hundreds of millions of dollars. It's never too late to get into the real estate market, people. The Society is just participating in Satan's "going out of business" deals, that's all! This old system is a lot like real estate, in fact--you've got to get rid of it before the value goes down too low!

  And it seems like "the heart is treacherous" (Jer. 17:9) must be the only scripture in the Bible; it gets used for practically every scenario in which one might be tempted to think about something beneficial to oneself. Want to buy a new car/house, get a better job? The heart is treacherous. But not so treacherous that the Society needs to provide financial statements to show what they're doing with the donations or anything. Their hearts are obviously incorruptible in matters of finance. We have to show full trust in those appointed to take the lead, remember? Only your heart is vulnerable to treachery, not theirs.

  "Therefore, should we not 'keep testing whether we are in the faith, keep proving what we ourselves are' by honest self-examination in light of what we study in the Bible? (2 Cor. 13:5)" 'Honest self-examination' can never be done in light of the Bible alone, but it is assumed that the writer of this article will never have to say that, his audience already knows. Any honest self-examination without Watchtower literature--or at least Watchtower interpretation of scripture--is automatically 'dishonest', 'haughty', 'independent thinking', and so on. So this should read "...by honest self-examination in light of what we study in the [Watchtower literature]?"

  Identifying traits of a cult:

  --Fear of the outside world/Satan

  --Guilt/shame followers against improving their financial status

  --Fear of imminent apocalypse

  Until next time...

  --sd-7 (I'm also an identifying trait of a cult, apparently, but this is really meant as a signature of sorts...)
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  8

  Today's text--James Brother in...The Bible Is Not Enough

  by sd-7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  wt comments, 4/29/15: .

  "does this mean that as long as there is no clearly stated law from god, we can just follow the ways and standards that we are brought up with and that are common in our area?...

  [quoted prov.

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  sd-7

  Data Dog--I particularly appreciate your Man Without Fear avatar there.

  1) Perhaps we would get along well. I'm glad to reconnect with you guys.

  2) There it is. I read the Bible a lot, and the more I did, the more I saw that something was wrong. Mostly in the extreme attitudes promoted by those taking the lead, the extreme things said in assembly and convention talks. And the literature...simple reading comprehension goes a long way with all that.

  Magwitch--who knew? Bright socks. Well, if only they were wool dyed reddish purple, you'd be okay, am I right? Ha!

  CloseTheDoor--Beards. The most sinister of Satan's snares regarding grooming. "O if only this hair didn't naturally grow out of my face! Then I would praise you forever."--Psalm I just made that up, verse 3.

  --sd-7
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  64

  The poor and deprived life of JW children.

  by Esse quam videri in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i find it hard to believe that adults on this forum make such a big deal about not celebrating birthdays, x-mas, easter, halloween, etc, etc, etc.

  i grew up as a jw kid and it actually made me feel good, being different from the other kids in school.

  we went to meetings.

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  sd-7

  These holidays are only human traditions. I never missed them because I never really knew them. My parents gave me plenty of good things regardless. I have very little desire to do holidays because it's something people do for no apparent reason to me. Family, chocolate candy, costumes, gifts, turkeys, etc.--these are things available to you throughout the year, apart from not being able to get days off to see all the family together, I mean. Big deal.

  What bothers me is the stolen TIME. Stolen time I could have used to get proper rest or to do my homework on midweek meeting nights and Saturday mornings. People I avoided out of fear because they were different from me. How do I know if I missed out on a lifelong friendship or meeting the love of my life? I'll never know that. Countless hours spent in reading and internalizing information that was not only false but misleading and abusive.

  Deprived of gifts? No. Of time, of a proper, healthy, nurturing childhood? Yes.

  --sd-7
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  57

  "Normal family affections and dealings" continue - If only?!?

  by LHS123 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am new to this forum - it is only a couple of weeks since i have allowed myself to acknowledge and research my doubts.

  i am trying to be fair by reading both sides of the story and considering jw official explanation of confusing matters.

  one of the issues i have been looking at is shunning - and i was shocked to see the misleading information about shunning on the jw.org website: .

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  sd-7

  They are blatantly lying to the public. Statements like the original post are the reason why they must surely have felt it necessary to create the Study Edition Watchtower. Because such statements as the one about not even e-mailing family members who are being shunned would be more easily accessible to public scrutiny if couched inside the issues offered to the public. (Sure, it's still on the Internet now, but hopefully you take my meaning.)

  I used to detect a measure of dishonesty in statements made to the public, but as a JW I'd felt the ends justified the means. That once they joined up, all would be well, they'd find out the real deal anyway, and by then they'd be good soldiers for the cause and it wouldn't matter.

  I have fond memories of my older brother insulting me, calling me stupid, as I tried to explain to my family the reasons I had for parting ways with the JWs. It ended in classic form, with him saying to me in parting, "I wasn't sh-- to you. F--- you!" and storming out of our parents' house. Of course, it was all about him, wasn't it? After seeing that display, and realizing that this was an appointed man, a servant to the congregation, I found that it was good riddance of someone who was never really my brother save that we share similar DNA.

  So if it wasn't clear, normal family affections and dealings DO NOT and CANNOT CONTINUE with former members of the group.

  Fact checker: This statement is ---->>>FALSE.

  --sd-7
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  42

  Convention Cartoon

  by freemindfade in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so last night they played the convention cartoon.

  there were a few laughs from the audience, overall though people seemed a little taken aback and tight lipped.

  like no one gushed about it afterwards, no applause, just like it was nothing new at all.

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  sd-7

  On some level, it makes sense the adults would like the cartoons, too, since the leadership reduces them to childlike dependency. Perhaps that's why I still like cartoons so much myself...fascinating...but not these cartoons. How the game has changed. I mean, I know we were being spoon-fed, but this is getting a bit too far out there. I suppose I would credit them for trying to care about young people, except that 'care' means 'recruit', so...I'd really rather not.

  --sd-7
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  8

  Today's text--James Brother in...The Bible Is Not Enough

  by sd-7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  wt comments, 4/29/15: .

  "does this mean that as long as there is no clearly stated law from god, we can just follow the ways and standards that we are brought up with and that are common in our area?...

  [quoted prov.

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  sd-7

  WT comments, 4/29/15:

  "Does this mean that as long as there is no clearly stated law from God, we can just follow the ways and standards that we are brought up with and that are common in our area?...[quoted Prov. 16:20]...The Bible shows that trends and standards of the world are manipulated and controlled by none other than Satan, 'the god of this system of things'".

  By this logic, practically anything could be labeled as satanic. Computers, cell phones, cars--those are all pretty trendy. Does that mean it's God's will for us to avoid them? Treating women as something other than an inferior is trendy, but I guess we all know it's God's will for us to avoid that particular 'trend'! It's all an evil plan from Satan for us to treat women with dignity! Which trends are we supposed to avoid, exactly? Who can say? Oh, right. Only the Watchtower literature can say and be regarded seriously. Anyone else is just expressing a "personal preference" at best and "influenced by Satan" at worst.

  And of course we know that if there is no 'clearly stated law from God', the Watchtower Society is more than eager to pick up God's slack and make a law if none previously existed. This text is a prime example of that, and adds the not-so-veiled threat: "Therefore, if we want Jehovah's blessing and approval, we need to heed the admonition found in today's text." Translation: "If you want to be part of the team, you better obey the WT even if the Bible doesn't say anything about the rules we make up." The text itself? "Prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (Rom. 12:2) So, in the absence of proof from the Bible, when in doubt, just heed the Watchtower. "Therefore, if we want [the Governing Body's] blessing and approval, we need to heed the admonition found in [Watchtower literature]." That actually works just as well, and in fact they could say that outright and it would be accepted by most in attendance at the meetings.

  So, reminder: you can't figure out right and wrong on your own. Worse, you can't even figure it out by reading the Bible itself. Therefore, you need WT literature to 'prove' what God's will is for you. It's a great exercise in intimidation and denigrating humans as a whole, and even a slap in the Bible's face as well, all rolled up in one paragraph. (Of course, to say this is also, ironically, to highlight their own collective failure as the ones responsible for teaching people to be mature Christians. If you need any reminders of that, just go through the "Questions From Readers" section of the Watchtower magazine for a few years.)

  Identifying traits of a cult in use:

  --Black-or-white, all or nothing worldview

  --Reducing members to a childlike, dependent state

  --Fear, guilt, shame

  "Their stance toward outsiders is of benign superiority."--p.77, The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power, by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad, quoted on freedomofmind.com.

  So...that was just one day's text. Since I'm hearing 'em every morning now, might as well have at 'em.

  --sd-7
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  5

  News Article from The Atlantic about the Health Effects of Leaving Religion (Mentions JWs)

  by sd-7 in

  1. social
  2. current

  http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/the-health-effects-of-leaving-religion/379651/.

  a particularly curious quote was:.

  the most mainstream research on this is a 2010 study out of pennsylvania state university, which examined data from 1972 to 2006. the study showed that 20 percent of people who have left religion report being in excellent health, versus 40 percent of people currently part of strict religious groups (such as jehovahs witnesses and latter-day saints) and 25 percent of people who switched from a strict religion to a more lenient religion.

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  sd-7

  Good point, Apognophos. Did they actually examine any of the people in this study and determine what their health actually was? That would be the more relevant factor.

  --sd-7
• 
  5

  News Article from The Atlantic about the Health Effects of Leaving Religion (Mentions JWs)

  by sd-7 in

  1. social
  2. current

  http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/the-health-effects-of-leaving-religion/379651/.

  a particularly curious quote was:.

  the most mainstream research on this is a 2010 study out of pennsylvania state university, which examined data from 1972 to 2006. the study showed that 20 percent of people who have left religion report being in excellent health, versus 40 percent of people currently part of strict religious groups (such as jehovahs witnesses and latter-day saints) and 25 percent of people who switched from a strict religion to a more lenient religion.

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  sd-7

  http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/the-health-effects-of-leaving-religion/379651/

  A particularly curious quote was:

  The most mainstream research on this is a 2010 study out of Pennsylvania State University, which examined data from 1972 to 2006. The study showed that 20 percent of people who have left religion report being in excellent health, versus 40 percent of people currently part of strict religious groups (such as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Latter-Day Saints) and 25 percent of people who switched from a strict religion to a more lenient religion. “Strict” in this study was defined as “high-cost sectarian groups that are theologically and culturally exclusive."

  I guess I can see the benefits of having a social community and possibly a benefit from door-to-door (not so much from streetwork if you're standing still, that would lead to foot problems--one older sister stood so long in streetwork her ankles started to swell up, I heard). I can see the potential for depression resulting from being ousted from one's community and trying to find a niche for oneself.

  In my mind, it's a lot like heartbreak, like the end of a relationship that's in a way much more profound--for many, at least--than say, a marriage ending or something. Especially in a high control group, the sense of violation involved has to be a devastating thing emotionally. And then to have everyone you know think you've lost your mind--doesn't help, either.

  I saw that an ex-JW has already commented there on the site, but I'm not sure there's nearly enough intelligent discourse going on. I haven't commented myself, though. I just found it curious. I wouldn't be surprised if this quote makes it into a Watchtower or Awake! article sometime in the future...

  --sd-7