Posts by Paulapollos

6

thanks to all you rationalists

by Paulapollos in

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Paulapollos

cheers besty, I forgot to put you on that list!

PP

6

thanks to all you rationalists

by Paulapollos in

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Paulapollos

I know I don’t often comment here, but I thought I would write a little thank you, and perhaps start a discussion on the benefits of rationalism.

I’ve been coming to this site for a while, and at the beginning, I was very locked in the “gospel” or the “good news of Jesus Christ.” In other words, I was a dyed-in-the-wool, “Jesus lives in me, through me, I am no longer alive, it is the Lord who lives and acts” etc, kind-of guy. Now, I’m not criticising that. But the frank truth is that I was so locked into the “Jesus is Lord, and Jesus is Wisdom” and so on and so forth, that I was not really using my mental faculties to their potential. It really was a case of “Jesus knows best.”

But reading on this site, I came across a lot of different opinions, and I’m glad to say, opinions that challenged me. These opinions tended to be more rational, reasoned opinions. All manner of questions from the validity of the Bible as a religious document, to discussions of what can be considered “true” were found on this site. And I’m glad to say, they made me think.

Somebody on this site (I forget who) made a comment on the evolutionary necessity of religion. Now as a person who has always rubbished evolution as a theory that has been stretched beyond its proper magisteria, I found this fascinating. So I ended up reading Daniel Dennett, Breaking the Spell, Religion as a Natural Phenomenon. It really introduced me to the intellectual strength of rationalism, of seeking natural explanations for seemingly supernatural longings within humans. I read that book, and related books, as a direct result of a comment on this site.

Another comment that really made me think was by a poster, replying to someone who says that Jesus speaks to them, and reveals things. Now, while respecting their right to believe that the voice inside their head is Jesus Christ, the comment pointed out the power of hallucination, and the dangers of allowing such people a say in the way society is run. The comment by the poster was, in a way I’m sure they didn’t know, an echo of the truly great TH Huxley: “Trust a witness in all matters in which neither his self-interest, his passions, his prejudices, nor the love of the marvellous is strongly concerned. When they are involved, require corroborative evidence in exact proportion to the contravention of probability by the thing testified.”

Prompting my thinking, I ended up reading Carl Sagan’s The Demon-Haunted World (an old book, but no less brilliant for it). It was a healthy call to arms in defence of rational thought, especially helping me to think clearly about those who claim that “Jesus speaks to me”. And so, onto Richard Dawkins, and particularly Unweaving the Rainbow, among many ,many others. Again, it was comments by posters on this site that led me that way.

Now, “what is your point, boring Paulapollos?” you may say. Well, I wanted to give a great big “shout-out” to all you rational thinkers on this site, all you people who write searchingly and thoughtfully. Sometimes you get a bad rap. You get accused of “cynicism”, and in extreme cases, of “blaspheming against the spirit” (!!!), as I saw recently. I know you are far too thick-skinned to be affected by such barbs, but I still wanted to give a great big “thank you” to you, for being beacons of uncommon sense and rationality. I’m thinking of among others, OntheWayOut, BandonTheRun, wobble, cantleave, Ziddina (despite her unhealthy obsession with Middle Eastern Bronze Age Volcano Gods ;-) ), Rebel8, Terry, Leavingwt, AlltimeJeff, NewChapter, Jookbeard, madsweeny, metatron, besty, among others.

Notice, I don’t know who is atheist, agnostic, Christian, or whatever, nor do I care. What you all share in common is an unwillingness to simply believe what anyone tells you, but a commitment to think rationally. And for that, I say thank you. You have definitely helped me to think, and in many ways to shed irrationality. Rationalism has led me to freedom from all manner of ignorant superstitions and paradigms, to freedom from all manner of frankly illogical ideas, to freedom from all manner of backwards creeds. In particular, it has helped me to look at "Jesus" or "Jehovah" and say "before you tell me I should worship you, you've got a lot to answer for." It takes a particular kind of rational thought to come to that conclusion. Some of you posters get a real bad rap - but I can honestly say, I appreciate the things you write.

And now that is out the way, I would love to hear from others whether they feel that thinking rationally, skeptically, has helped them, and if there are posters here who have helped them to open their minds. And of course, if there are those who think rationality can be taken too far, I'd love to hear from you too.

PP

97

Another question, if I may...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

and may you all have peace!

this is another general question for the board and i ask your indulgence because i am trying to understand how others think.

if there truly is no god/god... what is wrong with the existence of religion?

Paulapollos

AGuests’ question really got me thinking. Why is religion not permitted the same “freedom” that other “industries” have?

Actually, AGuest, I believe that religion IS being treated like every other “industry”, hence the growing opposition to religion and belief in God generally, in the Western world. In all the other industries you mentioned, such as pharmaceuticals, there are mechanisms that are used to independently verify the "truth" claims, and the effectiveness of the promises made. From FDA trials to medical journal peer review, drug companies (for example) are required to prove that the things they say are true, and the promises they make can actually happen.

For the first time, there is a concerted public effort to apply this same criteron to religion and belief in God. While it is being championed by people like Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, it has considerable widespread support. The “truth” claims of all forms of worship of a “god” are being independently challenged. In that sense, religions are being treated the same as every other industry, such as the energy industry with climate change, the food industry, the tobacco industry, etc. The pattern is the same. Just as those industries pour huge sums into propaganda, biased studies and special pleading and lobbying, the industry that advocates worship of a “god” is doing the same.

I actually think your underlyingl question is “if people want to choose to do something that is ultimately of little or no benefit to them, why should others interfere with that? Even if there is harm, do people not have the right to choose?” You are right to some degree of course. Freedom to choose is part of our social structure in the West. However, the problem isn’t really YOUR freedom to choose to worship a “god”. The matter of great concern to people today is the degree to which YOUR choices should have any impact on others.

For instance, why should the education system teach the idea that “god” may have created the universe? If I have to prove my theory that the world was created by a giant chocolate teapot, why should you (I speak not of you personally, AGuest, but of all the “religious”, of which I view you as one) not have to provide evidence of your belief that Jehovah and Jesus did it? Why should the belief that an invisible bearded man said, 4000 years ago, that men are not allowed to sleep with men be allowed to influence society today? Why should abortion not be allowed, for women who have been raped, or whose lives are at risk, because you believe that all life is “sacred to God”? I’m sure you get the point - what proof do the religious have that any of those claims are actually TRUE - that they were indeed delivered by God to mankind, and that obeying them is right, beneficial? Where is the proof that they are right, moral and beneficial?

The real contention of people today against religious views, including many on this site (I would surmise, correct me if I’m wrong) is – “why on earth should anyone have to take notice of your views and structure society according to them, if you have no proof that those views are correct?” Again, we are living in a progressive age. We treat other claims made by other industries that way, and religion is now being judged by the same criterion. So in that sense, I believe your question to be moot.

In actual fact, I don’t think anyone is attempting to say “you should not have the freedom to believe in God, or practise a religion.” What they are actually saying is “if you want us to give belief in God a role in shaping society, then you have to prove it has some truth value.” Just like every other industry - which is why the energy industry, the tobacco industry and the pharmaceutical industry pour huge sums into trying to convince us of their "truth" claims. And if the religious cannot prove their "truth" claims, then those who have belief in God have no right to expect therest of the world to follow or accept what they say is “moral” or “immoral”, what is “right” and what is “wrong”. Those who believe in God have the right to tell the world their views – but for the first time in Western history, their “right” to be taken account of is being challenged comprehensively. Thank God for that!!

PP

160

I'm new here..... Studying with the Witnesses

by PenelopePaige in

jw
friends

hi- i just wanted to say that i have been checking the website out for a few weeks and have read some horror stories and some sad ones.

but i have been studying with witnessess for about six months and can't help but feel that they're completely sincere and maybe even, the true religion.

i love the watchtower and awake and to me, none of that seems crazy.

Paulapollos

Hi PenelopePaige,

I'm sure you have had so much advice, that your head is spinning. On this site, you will find people who come from every aspect of the JW world - from unbaptized publishers to JW missionaries. ConcernedJW is absolutely right. On this site, you will find these ex-JW's have an agenda. That agenda is quite open - ask each of them. Their agenda is to tell you the truth.

I, like many here, was a convert to this religion. I became a Witness because I was amazed that so much of what the Witnesses said made sense. I was amazed at just how much of the Bible they quoted and used, how much of their decisions and activities seemed to be based on what it said. I had never seen anything like it - kind, honest, generous people, loving and warm. I made many wonderful friends, met many lovely people. I followed their direction, stopped associating with friends in my life who were not JW's, and made the changes I needed to to be acceptable for baptism. I pioneered, served in the congregation, and later served in a very responsible position at Bethel, the JW's branch office.

It was much later that I came to see many of the things that disturbed me. Each one of the things I am about to write is a fact. It can be confirmed by asking the JW's you study with, whether it is true. why not put them to the test?

JW's are a high control group, Penelope. They will exercise their authority over you, and your family life. When you become a JW, you surrender yourself to the authority of the organisation. Ask your study conductor if these are true:

- The organisation claims to have the authority to speak on God's behalf - no-one else on earth is authorised by God to teach about him. No-one else on Earth teaches the truth.

- If you attempt to study the history of the organisation with outside sources, then come to a different conclusion to the organisation (about itself), you are not permitted to share that info with other JW's, because you may stumble them.

- If you disagree with something written in the WT, and repeatedly discuss it with your JW friends, you are likely to recieve a visit from the elders.

- If you read the Bible, and come up with a different understanding of what you read to the JW interpretation, you are not permitted to share that with others. If you do, you will recieve a visit from the elders.

- If you share your different understanding with JW's, you are likely to be branded an apostate, thrown out, and your friendships with other members are severed - they are not permitted to speak to you.

Each of above are marks of a high-control group. Check if the JW's have them. www.jwfacts.com has all the evidence, from their own literature. Ask your study conductor each of these questions. Then ask yourself, do I want to be subject to this? Do I want my family to be subject to this?

If so, then Penelope Paige, good luck to you. If you don't, then I echo what others have said here. Run, and do so very quickly.

PP

49

Anyone wanna place a bet on what will happen to me when I have to go to the Kingdom Hall this Saturday??

by Coffee House Girl in

jw
friends

well since there is no "betting" (as it reeks of gambling) in jdub land, lets place a friendly wager on what will happen to me when i go to my father's "memorial" service at the kingdome hall this saturday..... to give you newbies background info: i am neither df'd or da'd- i left 2 years ago with no explanation.

i have been hounded by elders in my cong because they have suspicions that i am living with a man, but they have no proof (well, no proof in jdub land- you know...two witness rule).

after many attempts to get me to meet with them- i finally sent the elders a "cease & desist" letter after one of them spied in my miniblinds to see me eating breakfast with someone (they couldn't identify who).

Paulapollos

I'm so sorry to hear about this - condolences, CHG. It's terrible that you even have to consider how you will be treated when you get there. That's quite clearly the last thing you need right now.

PP

52

Honest questions for believers.....

by Paulapollos in

jw
friends

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over the last couple of years, i have done a lot of reading, and rather than answering my questions, it has made me think even more - particularly about god and the bible.. when i was kicked out of the wtbts, it was because of my personal belief in jesus.

Paulapollos

Mouthy,

I don’t think you’re nuts. I’ve had the pleasure of reading some of your posts, and I happen to think you are a very sweet lady, with a lot of good to share. If you believe God is looking after you, then good for you. I, for one, certainly hope He is. :-)

Snowbird,

Yes, you are making sense actually. I think I get where you are coming from – in essence, you seem to be saying that you believe that God has done whatever he had to do in the past, even though that sometimes may seem terrible to us. Your faith in God’s goodness means you trust him, trust him to do the right thing. Rather than concern yourself too much with the rightness of his actions from our perspective, you are focused on his rightness as a person. At least, that’s what I think you mean.

Tenyearsafter,

I don’t think your view is simplistic at all. You are right – there is a degree of a leap of faith required even in some aspects of science. And you are right, in the end, we will always find some annoying person who tells us that our views are wrong, and proceeds to argue with us! :-)

PSacr,

Thanks for your responses, I’m really enjoying talking to you. I see what you mean about the Bible not being a science book, since 2Tim 3:16 makes reference to it being inspired and beneficial for teaching, but I do think it is a stretch to imagine that the writers of it, and orthodox believers down the centuries since, have ever considered it anything other than God’s Inspired Word (TM). That seems a view taken in the face of ever-increasing doubt about the Bible’s reliability.

It is here that the real conundrum comes. I appreciate your position, but it does seem , to me at least, to be slightly lacking (please don’t take that as an insult, it isn’t meant that way). Take this point – “I do indeed view it to be a book that was written by inspired men and edited and compliated by other Men, some inspired and some simply doing their jobs.”

Some of these inspired writers have made demonstrable mistakes. In some, it is a simple question of lack of understanding of population growth, in others, such as Joshua's destruction of the city of Ai, it is historical mistakes. In some, there are prophecies which have not been fulfilled, in others it is prophecies that are clearly taken out of context. How does a believer like yourself account for the mistakes that these inspired men have made? Does God make these kind of errors?

Accepting that it is inspired, that means that the accounts of God’s behaviour are correct. So how does a follower of Jesus like yourself come to terms with fact that YHWH says:

Those who leave my religion should be killed

Those who commit X/Y/Z should be burned/stoned/cut off

Entire cities should be razed, all the inhabitants slaughtered

Cities far away should have all the men killed, and you may take the women for your wives if you wish

Caananites may be taken for “forced labour”, even though Israel complained about being “forced labourers” in Egypt

And so on, and so forth. When you look at the person you follow, the kind Jesus, how do you maintain your faith in God, who ordered atrocities, who seems to act like Big Brother in 1984, who gives no real free will, and has committed vile episodes of abhorrent violence? If a man committed these acts today, even in war, we would call him a war criminal. Why is it ok for God to get away with it? Isn’t God even more morally accountable?

Which of course, leads me to this point – if, as some believers say, God didn’t command these activities – how do you know that?

You are right of course, each person ends up interpreting the Bible to suit himself. But that doesn’t mean it is right, or healthy, surely? If the Bible claims it is all inspired, I can’t see what possible justification the Bible gives for believers to pick and choose which bits they like? They have to take it at face value, and weigh up it’s claims against the evidence of Biblical scholars and archaeology, surely?

I would love to believe that God has granted unconditional love. But it seems to me he hasn’t. As far as I know, his forgiveness and love extends only to those who “repent” and “exercise faith”. In other words, it is conditional. It is similar to the “free will” God gave to Adam in the garden – “you have free will, in that you can choose to obey every order I give, and live; or you can choose to say, ‘no, I would like to do my own thing’, and then you will die.” Is that really free will?

I’d just like to echo what Wobble, LeavingWT, and Clarity said. It’s great that we can have these kinds of discussions, that we can debate and question, in an open, friendly atmosphere. It’s fantastic to experience. I know JWN sometimes gets a bad rap, in the sense that sometimes people feel the atmosphere gets sniping etc. And I can understand why it gets that way, because strong opinions are involved – and I actually think it is important that people sometimes express their frustrations with each other. But I’m glad that we can debate, and disagree, without having to necessarily scream at one another. So, I take this opportunity to pay tribute to all of you posters on this thread, for reasoned, honest, thought provoking discussion. Viva JWN!

PP

52

Honest questions for believers.....

by Paulapollos in

jw
friends

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over the last couple of years, i have done a lot of reading, and rather than answering my questions, it has made me think even more - particularly about god and the bible.. when i was kicked out of the wtbts, it was because of my personal belief in jesus.

Paulapollos

Snowbird,

thanks for that. At least you are upfront about your views. But it seems (I could be wrong) you are saying you have no problem with God killing people who disagree with him, or choose not to obey him. I can't understand that - your posts on this forum are generally very loving, very kind, very thoughtful. Yet you admire God for killing people, for exercising their free will?!!!

PP

52

Honest questions for believers.....

by Paulapollos in

jw
friends

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over the last couple of years, i have done a lot of reading, and rather than answering my questions, it has made me think even more - particularly about god and the bible.. when i was kicked out of the wtbts, it was because of my personal belief in jesus.

Paulapollos

LeavingWT,

that is a fantastic quote. thank you

PP

13

Does anyone have these books in pdf?

by average joe in

i was looking at wikipedia and saw they had these books and since they are private,secret etc i got to get my hands on them.

i also just want to learn about all the behind the scenes stuff so if you have any of these or can provide links to read them thats really cool :).

missionary counsel booklet (1985), for missionaries.

Paulapollos

Atlantis,

I wonder if I could trouble you to pm me also, with the above....

PP

52

Honest questions for believers.....

by Paulapollos in

jw
friends

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over the last couple of years, i have done a lot of reading, and rather than answering my questions, it has made me think even more - particularly about god and the bible.. when i was kicked out of the wtbts, it was because of my personal belief in jesus.

Paulapollos

Hi Psac,

Thanks for your post. It’s interesting when you say that the Bible is a progressive revelation of God. So does that mean that you accept there are errors in it? How does that play into your view of whether it is inspired? Do you believe the Bible to be free from error? If not, how do you determine what is right and wrong in the Bible? Personal preference?

When you say, “take the Bible for what it is and what it is NOT”, what exactly do you mean? By saying that, surely you are saying that the Bible is “something” and “is not something else” – so I cannot just choose what that is, according to my personal preference! Surely, the Bible is “something”, independent of what I might choose it to mean? Otherwise what value does the Bible actually have?

I do understand your analogy of a finger, but I need to ask you this – how can you view it as a finger pointing to God, if you accept it might be a human book, full of revision, redaction and compilation? I presume that you don’t view it as that – so how do you account for the views of scholars who have studied the history of the Bible?

Psac, like I said, I was very much a believer in Christ. I know the “answer” to “why I believe that suffering is wrong, and where I base that from.” The problem is, that very moral sense is outraged by the activities of God! So if it is from God, how is it that God is not acting according to the very moral sense that he designed? How do you account for that?

I really do appreciate you discussing this with me Psac.

PP