Posts by JCanon

34

UN Ban On Religion

by laurelin in

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does anyone here know anything about the supposed resolution that the un have about banning all religion?.

i've done a google search but can't find anything and i'd be grateful for any help on this.. thanks.

JCanon

Hi Pole, I'm probably my own worst enemy for using too many words...you mised my important point:

However, typically only religious minorities can be outlawed easily by the state. This is often inspired by religious majorities. JW situation in Moscow is a point in case (with the Orthodox Church inspiring the ban behind the scenes). Plus, even if religious majorities get outlawed (the Catholic Church in Poland under communism is one such example), the result is that people only become much more religiously determined and extreme than in times of relative freedom.

Remember the 1940's? You're Japanese and an American citizen, born in the US. Did you have rights? Sure! But once war broke out and Japan attacked the US all those Japanese people were sent off to concentration camps! That's right, the two places in the world that had concentration camps during WWII was the Germans and the US!

If you were a doctor in Germany, rich and a Jew, what good did it do you? Nothing. Because your blond, Christian German was on his own crusade to find more leibestraum ("living space") for all the Aryan babies he was breeding.

Point being who knows what type of power will be in charge in the world? It's only with this present set of circumstances that all these "rights" exist. Once the world is plunged into chaos then those rights will vanish.

Now think of how "unstable" the world is. You're in the WTC on the 30th floor having a meeting and a jet plane crashes through the window. How secure are you?

You're on a bullet train in Japan and some nut or terrorist organization lets out some lethal gas that kills everybody?

They say they even have backpack atomic devices, "dirty bombs" that can cripple entire regions. Man has to the power to destroy himself and all life on the planet. There's no wonder about "if" it's just a matter of "when".

Now the wonderful "media" has been training us with these philosophical ideas all along and wondering about how feeble are rights are if an "ultimatum" can be manipulated. We're all in the same row boat floating in the ocean. There is probably enough room and food for all. But someone doesn't like that. So they create a situation where only so many can live and then someone has to decide who lives and dies. When that type of decision comes up then the "rights" issue changes. Some movies of note would be one called (I believe) "Virus", with Dustin Hoffman, Renee Russo, Morgan Freeman (correct me if I'm wrong). In that movie a lethal virus that was developed or preserved had an outbreak and with the threat of killing off the entire population of the country it was decided to quarantine and kill the people infected in this small town. Where did their rights go?

Hey, there's a leak in the lower levels of the ship, if you don't lock that section off, then it will flood the entire ship. But wait, some "people" are still down there. What can we do?

It's ironic, because we have the idea that we're noble and heroic; and we are. We'd try to save someone if we could. Maybe someone drowning. But what if 50 people are drowning and you can only save one or two? Who would you choose?

Freemasonry evil tradition moves toward the goal of eliminating the "lower classes" so that the one master race only survives with the middle sub-class used as slaves for a while before they are eliminated. But probably things are not going as fast as they would like and so pushing it to the brink is the goal. You know, create a disaster that forces the people in the Western world who have little better to do than go shopping at Sachs and Wall-Mart every day to deal with eliminating the poor, non-white people of the world. America is a peace-loving nation? Force them into a war! How? America is not interested in third-world country conflicts and human rights violations. That's their problem. How can we get them involved and force them into a war? Oh I know, fly some airliner jets into the WTC and claim they are under attack by terrorists. Oh what a great idea! Make sure we don't find Bin Laden too soon so he can be a war symbol to fight against, a "visible" enemy.

There is even a propaganda claim that that is what was going down with the attack on Pearl Harbor. They needed that attack to get the Americans up and angry and ready to drop those A-bombs on Japan. Question is, did our "intelligence" know about this plan beforehand? And if they did, did the strategists figure out it was better to let them bomb Pearl Harbor so that the psychological and emotional mental state of otherwise laid-back Christian Americans could have a "cause" to fight for?

Kill a few kids and a few citizens without provacation and Americans will fight the "good cause". Question is, who really paid for those attacks? What "intelligence" is ultimately behind these successful events that change the playing field?

And what if somebody decides to change the course of things? Like JFK for instance? Or Martin Luther King? People clearly influential of the populace and with a "voice"? They get eliminated. By whom? Who cares, it's not that hard to hire an assasin is it?

Think about it. Probably the only reason Bush is getting a little flak for his war on "terrorism" is because that one plane headed for the White House didn't make it. Now THAT would have been a major emotional focus for the nation if that plane crashed into the White House. It would have doubled the significance of these attacks. As it is, it was quite effective with the WTC towers going down but the White House was likely the ultimate coup had it been successful.

But is it all a game? Someone with enough money can "buy" terrorists, right? Plus some in the Middle East claim the Jews did it! Which is funny actually! But they "think" that's what happened, since they are generally accused of things like this. So it's not like it hadn't occurred to people that perhaps this is more involved than simply smarter terrorists.

When you think about it, there are probably people out there who would want to do "drastic" things in the world. The only reason they have little influence is because they are not empowered. These modern terrorists are only threatening now because they are "empowered"; somehow they have funds and technology and are more clever than ever "all of a sudden", just when America needed a new enemy to fight and keep the war machines going.

But...this works out for the people in charge for a while. Babylon the Great with all her secret and wonderful means of doing whatever, will become unpopular at some point. Right now all these secretive ways and means has served the UN. But the UN will get sick of this influence at some point and will shut her operation and influence down. They will hate her and burn her with fire and expose her.

And it will happen quickly. Some "sting" operation is already in place. Someone is working against them or will betray them and then their lights will be put out. This will be followed by just a year and 3 months, perhaps less of some tense international chaos near the end of which will be declared, "peace and security" and I imagine outlaw of all religion in the meantime will be part of this, and why not? Especially the Catholic Church and JWs if their hands have been the most heavy co-participants? THEN God's kingdom will take over? How?

Easy. God will simply determine which elements need to disappear for the kingdom to take over and one night when they all go to bed, they simpl won't wake up. It's SOOOOO PROFOUND and INCREDIBLE! No fighting! No Messiah battling fighter jets in the sky with his great powers. No secret Christians coming out of the woodwork with special voice-activated weapons like in Dune to vanquish the enemy and claim the world. Just simple....death. There's no fighting a God like this one. He's not even going to argue. It's going to be: OKAY, three, two one...times up! Time for the millennium, everybody, thanks! Check with Joshua about what the plans are."

Then I will say, "Okay, I know there's a lot of dead bodies in those fabulous homes waiting to be buried, but.....I say, let's bury tomorrow. Today, LET'S GO SHOPPING! Everything is FREE!"

I'm so looking forward to starting the millennium off with a big shopping day! Won't that be neat?

What's also nice is that if all the enemies just drop dead, the survivors will inherit a world relatively intact. Not a lot of burned out buildings like a war zone that has to be rebuilt by the diminished population. All the world's resources will serve the diminished population for seven years before new manufacturing begins.

How neat! What a great reward just for believing the Bible!

JC

18

Promises From the Dead

by Farkel in

charles taze russell promised us we would never die.

he's dead.. joseph franklin rutherford promised us we would never die.

he's dead.. nathan homer knorr promised us we would never die.

JCanon

Hi Farkel...

Jesus said..."Some standing here will not die.." until he arrived. Among those would be John and Paul.

They're still alive. I've seen Paul myself, personally.

Sooo....depends on whose making the claims I guess.

Being on the "inside" has its advantages, I must say.

JC

63

Do you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God?

by desib77 in

do you believe the bible is the inspired word of god?

have you somehow attempted to prove this to yourself or have you just accepted it?

JCanon

Explain carnivorous dinosaurs, and why the Bible says that Adam & Eve
were in a paradise, when these dinosaurs were around the same time amen!s

The Biblical reference to dinosaurs is verse 21: "And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about..." Great sea monsters = dinosaurs. Now the JW traditional view is that these creatures were created first to help create the topsoil layer and obviously later create massive oil reserves which has to come from organic matter. This was created by the fifth day. Each day was 7,000 years long. These massive creatures, of course would create lots of "fertilizer" to make for a rich organic topsoil for the future. After their purpose, they became extinct. No problem. As far as a skull of some man being dated 30,000 years, it is far more likely that scientists are misinterpreting some form of inadquate dating method. You should note how archaeologists even now argue among themselves about carbon dating of certain things when only a couple thousand years are involved. 30,000 years? Doubtful. Besides who knows how reliable the methods are or if there was some phenomenon that could account for some misreading? Maybe something that accelerated the half life or something. In the meantime, the "hard evidence" of mankind's "written history" is completely consistent with the Bible and those people who were building pyramids and castles don't look any more ape-like than we do now. The most ancient civilizations we know of, the Incas, the Babylonians and Egyptians, evidence we can actually reliably date don't go past the Bible's chronology and these people were intelligent and had written language and knew about astronomy and all that! Not much different from us, and maybe in some ways more advanced with some wild people claiming they must have gotten their information from extraterrestials. Of course, there are "extra terrestials"...the Bible calls them angels! People will believe what a they need to, not that I'm less biased, but I just think it's all too convenient that out of those alleged 30,000 years or more that man was ape-like and living in caves as hunter-gatherers and then all of a sudden he started writing and building pyramids and zygurats, all within the Bible's timeline. Sorry, but inadequate dating methods by ever-changing science is not sufficient to dismiss the Bible as a book of truth...let alone "inspiration". JC

34

UN Ban On Religion

by laurelin in

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does anyone here know anything about the supposed resolution that the un have about banning all religion?.

i've done a google search but can't find anything and i'd be grateful for any help on this.. thanks.

JCanon

Hi Pole, I wrote a little on this but I'll give you what the Bible-based picture looks like when compared with the current world and what is supposed to happen....

That's exactly what we are saying. UN is not empowered to ban religion.

Per Daniel, the three political beasts, Japan, Russia and US (which are the principal members of the Trilateral Commission by the way, Asia, Europe the Americas) will give up their sovereignty for a short while immediately after the fourth beast, Babylon the Great, the Illuminati-influenced secret society infiltrated organizations is destroyed.

But interestingly, the "little horn" which has the eyes, thus an influencial secret service intelligent agency, which uses its intelligence to manipulate world affairs is part of the fourth beast. That suggests when the fourth beast is destroyed, probably implicated in some international espionage or terrorism that the intelligence agency is part of this conspiracy and will be eliminated.

In the broadest strokes something consistent with this picture seems to be a showdown between the CIA and perhaps the congress and Justice Departments of the government. Maybe the government will try to ban the CIA but it can't because it doesn't know enough about it's secret operations and personnel. The Illuminati's power and that of Babylon the Great is focussed in finance. But "there is no romance without finance", so one way to cripple perhaps a rogue element in the intelligence agency is to freeze ALL international funds everywhere!

Right now, secret and criminal organizations get past the government since they can hide money in Swiss bank accounts or offshore in the Kaymens or something, but all that money will be frozen now world wide if everybody in the UN cooperates. Thus all that vast amount of wealth will mean nothing if you can't spend it and a new form of money is established, etc.

Remember when Babylon the Great is conquered by the UN and burned, it is the merchants who mourn over her and all her great wealth. Likewise, how can anybody operate without funds?

The other factor here is the US, the most independent of all countries also gives up it's sovereignty which is hard to imagine, UNLESS it is the country that's in the most trouble for once. That is, maybe a planned coup by some rouge factor in the intelligence agencies tries to destroy the congress or takes the congress hostage or something, or maybe even dismantles the visible operating government and an emergency interim government recognized by the international community responds to the crises and freezes all international funds. Swiss banks will freeze all funds. No big spending. All transactions will have to be through a computer, etc. The US will be able to regain control now only through the help of the entire international community.

And then there's that ultimate motive of international greed. Once the Illuminati has been "outlawed" and labelled as terrorists or drug dealers then all their funds can be legally comfiscated and divided up among the nations so they stand to make big profits by going along with this. If the US interim government promises to divide the spoils and invest in the world economy then what have they got to lose by going along with the plan?

In the meantime, if organized religion, particularly the Catholic Church, Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons are considered to be infiltrated by secret society members and the religions are just considered to be a cover for covert operations, then that would be a reason not to ban "religion" per se, but the "public" practice of religion as well as the corporate recognition of religion. That is, major religions with massive funds will also lose all their money and thus their power of manipulation.

In addition, since this is an extremely temporary situation, the world powers only being given a year and a 3 months before they themselves are eliminated, it suggests the times are extremely critical politically as well as economically. But a huge economic crisis where the Illuminati and few others again control the major wealth in the world and maybe create some kind of international economic disaster would be sufficient to establish drastic measures until things get better under control.

Finally, as far as the UN mandate against religion, all they have to do is officially separate "church from state" and recognize NO RELIGION at all.

And I do think I answered the question when I noted that it didn't matter what France or Poland felt about religious freedom since it's the military occupying forces in charge who decide who has rights and who doesn't and once in power they can do what they want to do.

Per "Freemasonry" philosophy, if you oppress and terrorize someone enough, they will take the lesser of two evils, and a dictatorship with no religious freedom as we know it will seem like a lesser evil at some point and that's all it takes. All they have to say is, "It is our assessment that in order to regain order, so you can go shopping at Wall-Mart this weekend, we will have to ban all religion and public religious expression and will recognize no specific religion", at which point few will object.

The other thing is that the "false prophet" (JWs) and the "666 Beast" are thrown into the lake of fire while "still alive." This would not necessarily mean the UN simply stops them from operating their religion, but it might mean that both organizations are exposed for some secret illegal activities and they are outlawed for it's leadership being involved in part of the international crisis. So if the religion, say the Vatican and the witness organization which are organized and have corporations, can be legally outlawed from operating and their funds frozen and that would essentially be the end of it, especially if their leaders and lawyers are locked up. Who will put out the "Awake!" magazine? Nobody!

And this will happen quickly and without warning.

It won't be pretty.

Anyway, that's my take. The CIA as part of the target for elimination by the UN along with BTG is part of the picture consistent with how the scriptures lay it out, with apparently confiscation of funds being a big part of the situation. You can fill in the blanks.

JC

63

Do you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God?

by desib77 in

do you believe the bible is the inspired word of god?

have you somehow attempted to prove this to yourself or have you just accepted it?

JCanon

I believe the Bible is inspired as long as you exclude three books not quoted from by the NT Bible Writers, which are not inspired: Esther, Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon.

JC

34

UN Ban On Religion

by laurelin in

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does anyone here know anything about the supposed resolution that the un have about banning all religion?.

i've done a google search but can't find anything and i'd be grateful for any help on this.. thanks.

JCanon

I can't see how the UN could possibly enforce such a ban. The US and Coalition forces have enough trouble now with some insurgents in Iraq. How could those fanatics be convinced to give up their religion? Then, what about the rest of earth's relgious population?

Hello folks! ??? I hate to break it to you, but this is a rather "academic" question. Why? Look at history. Now the United States had declared it's political independence and had been a free nation since 1776, right? Great. And Europe was the world of religious and political freedom for the most part? Was it not? 1940. What happened? The Christian nation of Germany decided it wanted to rule the world and almost managed to do so. And what did it do with "freedom of religion" and "freedom of speech"? It went right out the window! They said you believe as they did or you're out. Even worse, they decided this world was only for them and it didn't matter how long you lived in Germany, if you were not a "native" German, an Aryan, then you didn't have human rights. Further, if you were a Jew or gypsy you were a problem and you needed to be removed from contact with the "holy people" and in case you didn't die quickly enough by starvation, they would march you into the gas chambers and gas you and then incinerate your body. That was 1947! Long after George Washington. Point being? Who is to say some "urgent" issue occuring in the "German world" will again result in this type of oppression? Nothing! In fact it is a "formula" well-known to the free society. If you want to enslave the free society, you simply "terrorize" that society and they will gladly give up their rights. Imagine that Russia, a country was in a cold war with the US, it's only truly "natural" enemy. Now it is not so challenging. But guess what? Now we're afraid to go to the World Trade Center for bruch....oops! I forgot it's not there any more! And WHY NOT? Oh yeah, "international terrorists" now threaten every man, woman and child in the US on their OWN SOIL! Oh wow! Do you remember the Watts riots? I was there! I climb upon my roof in Compton and saw 103rd street on fire! What happened? They imposed a curfew and I actually saw the national guard stationed at the local shopping center on the corner, the one that hadn't burned down yet. It felt like a military occupation.....hey! Maybe because IT WAS a military occupation!! So all it takes is "chaos" in the world. Some massive economic crises where people are going hungry and scared and the national crisis and MARSHAL LAW takes over and that's it. Then there are no "rights". Funny to me, this new "terrorism" is religious based! Who is to say at some point, when the issue actually comes up in an "international forum" that Christians will have the last say as to what is right for all people? IF it were up to a vote, do you think the Muslims and Hindus and Bhuddists think that Christianity should be the world religion? No way! Not with the Crusades and the Catholic Church history as our best example. Forget it. If world peace between all nations was seen as only possible when religion and other devisive factors were minimized, then it will go right out the window. Right now schools don't want other people "praying" around them since it oppresses freedom of religion...the other people's religion. JWs don't want to salute the flag because it violates their conscience. And some people don't want "one nation under God" as part of the pledge. Can't you see? In order to be truly FAIR, no form of public religious expression is a way to achieve religious "equality". Further, while we are saying that the Muslim "terrorists" are going to far, what on earth was the Crusades? If not religious "terrorism". It's just inconvenient for the Christians that someone else is on a "crusade" right now, right? It's Oh so horrible an idea when someone else is doing it! Bottom line, it's WHO CONTROLS THE WORLD that decides how much religious freedom you have. And the person who controls the world is the person with the MOST MONEY? Why? Because if you have enough money, you can buy weapons and terrorize whomever you want, or pay someone else to do it. Who knows where Bin Laden's money is really coming from? Yes, today's UN might not be empowered to ban religion, but that's today! That's before an impending world crisis. In order to stop violence in the name of religion, one sure way to do it is to ban ALL meetings in the name of religion. Not public meetings of any kind by any group. That's marshall law. That's something that can happen at any time if war breaks out. And war....is easy. If you have enough money! For some, war is even quite profitable! It's funny how the UN cut off Sadam H's oil to isolate him economically, but when Hitler was threatening the whole world, where do you think he got his oil supplies from? German oil wells? No. He was supplied the oil and gas. Find out from whom. Then ask WHY? There is no "freedom of religion" in war time, and last I heard the US was under "attack", right? The irony of all this is that it seems the target for banning public religion is to ban terrorist activity. But most religious terrorist organizations, already banned, have formed secret societies already, so the ban on religion won't really affect them!!! It just affects the blind masses manipulated by the people at the top. JC

35

"Those days will be cut short " - question

by Sirona in

my jw friend (the only one who does keep in touch) is really considering "fading".. the trouble is that she was raised a jw and is finding it all really difficult, plus her father is a prominent jw.. she mentioned to me the scripture (matthew?

) that says that the last days would have to be cut short for the sake of the holy ones.

she says they always taught that this referred to the anointed and that they'd all die off if jehovah didn't cut short the days of the time of the end.. she says that if they ever change thoughts on this doctrine she would immediately leave.

JCanon

Excellent points. They need to re-work the whole "holy ones" "chosen ones" explanation.
Is it just those who have a heavenly calling. Or are all Christians "holy ones" destined for heaven.
The Bible's use of the term "chosen" and "holy ones" is very ambiguous.

The reference to the "holy ones" in direct relatoin to the great tribulation is not ambiguous when you specifically consider Daniel 12. In that the "holy ones" are spoken of being "dashed to pieces" during this great tribulation.

Now why would God cause most of his own "holy ones" to be dashed to pieces in this great tribulation, clearly the FOCUS of the great tribulatoin? No. Instead the "holy ones" in this case are the Jews, the natural Jews. They are the ones that are the target of this final "great tribulation" against them because God prophesied this would happen to him if he left his covenant, which is being scattered throughout the nations and a sword following after them.

So this is a final punishment of the Jews to fulfill this prophecy, which makes sense, even though "spiritual Israel" becomes symbolically part of this attack. That is, the Nazis who carry out this "desolatoin" of the holy ones, the Jews, also focuses on "spiritual Israel" who are Jehovah's witnesses. Note that the Nazis specifically singled out the witnesses. They were assigned the specific prison badge of the "purple triangle"; the Jews were assigned the well-known yellow star.

I know this is a bit complex, but the context of "unless the days were cut short no flesh would be saved" in and of itself suggests that the majority would be lost and only a remnant remain. This is precisely what happened to the Jews where two thirds of the Jews were exterminated.

Matthew distinguishes "spiritual Israel" and fleshly Israel by the designation of the "greater number" versus the "lesser number." Thus as part of the signs leading up to the Holocaust it mentions the "love of the greater number would cool off." What greater number? If there is a greater number then there must be a counterpart lesser number. The greater number are the natural Jews, the lesser number are spiritual Israel, a reference to anointed ones associated with Jehovah's witnesses. Thus the "love of the greater number cooling off" means the a cooling off of the affection for the Jewish people in the form of increased anti-Semitism for this period leading up to the Holocaust a very well-documented fact of fulfillment for this period.

But you know, I get the feeling that this is simply not thw "final solution" to this passage that the folks here are looking for, even though it's the correct explanation.

Don't forget, the "great tribulation" is completely over before the Messiah arrives...."immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days..." (Matthew 24). Hitler's success in WWII was cut short by two factors primarily, the US entering the war but also an extremely severe winter in Russia....hmmmmm.

JC

35

"Those days will be cut short " - question

by Sirona in

my jw friend (the only one who does keep in touch) is really considering "fading".. the trouble is that she was raised a jw and is finding it all really difficult, plus her father is a prominent jw.. she mentioned to me the scripture (matthew?

) that says that the last days would have to be cut short for the sake of the holy ones.

she says they always taught that this referred to the anointed and that they'd all die off if jehovah didn't cut short the days of the time of the end.. she says that if they ever change thoughts on this doctrine she would immediately leave.

JCanon

She mentioned to me the scripture (Matthew?) that says that the last days would have to be cut short for the sake of the holy ones. She says they always taught that this referred to the anointed and that they'd all die off if Jehovah didn't cut short the days of the time of the end.

Czar is correct, this is a reference to the "great tribulation"; and Farkel is well noted, it doesn't make sense for JWs.

The actual fulfilment of this prophecy since Matthew 24 clearly indicates "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." the sign of the son of man would appear, etc. is that this is not Armageddon and this occurs before the second coming!!!

Furthermore, note this is a special tribulation for women with small children? Why?

Plus people are told to "flee to the mountains"....would the mountains save them? YES!!!

That's because this "great tribulation" is the one long prophesied by Daniel in which there would be an "extermination" of the Jews, in fact Zechariah says two-thirds of the Jews would be killed during this extermination and great tribulation, but it's a tribulation of "Daniel's people" (Daniel 12), this is the "trampling of the holy ones" specifically, not the entire world. So what is the interpretation and how were these "days" cut short?

The "great tribulation" was thus the HOLOCAUST, occuring basically from 1940 to 1945. Hitler was out to kill all the Jews and had he succeeded in coming to power, worldwide, even for a short time, the nation of Jews essentially could have been wiped out totally. Thus the "days" of this tribulation, WWII, were cut short in order that "some flesh could be saved", that is, some flesh of the Jews, saved from total extermination.

Without going into extensive detail, the "chronology" involved here suggests this tribulation was to be 7 years. It reflects the prophecy of 62 weeks beginning the "cut off" of the Messiah, in this case, represented by the "chosen people". The 490-year periods dated from the first 70th week, which ended in 36CE would end in 1996 and begin in 1506. 4 x 490 is 1960 plus 36CE is 1996. In the meantime, 1947 represents the 50th jubilee from 455BCE, thus the date the Jews would be finally restored to their homeland. 62 weeks is 434 years. 434 plus 1506 brings us to 1940. So that actually times as well as limits this "great tribulation" to the 7-year period, generally, from 1940 to 1947. Of note the "disgusting thing in a holy place that causes desolation" would be when the Nazi army surrounded the largest exiled concentration of Jews which is Warsaw Poland. Poland was invaded late in 1939. This is when it was time to flee to the mountains.

But again, of course, 7 years of what Hitler had set up for the Jews would have exterminated them totally worldwide and so these "days" were cut short so some flesh would be saved.

Also of note, though, "fleeing to the mountains" was one way to escape the Nazis as many did. But if you were a woman with little children, this was not an option for you. These women had a choice to abandon their children to the gas chambers and save their own lives or dying with their children. Women with no children, of course, could flee to the mountains and hide out from the Nazis if they were wise enough to leave the ghettos before they were all sealed off by the Nazis in the major Jewish cities in Poland after which they were liquidated at the death camps.

So that's the explanation and true fulfillment. This doesn't work for JW doctrine for a variety of reasons, including the fact that they ignore Matthew 24 which indicates this "great tribulation" precedes the second coming. Their feeble explanation is that somehow the great tribulation is "Armageddon" in this reference and that after it has started, then some last-minute convertees would be saved. ??? But the Bible says "after the tribulation" of those days the Messiah would arrive. Also making this an impossible solution for JWs is the fact that they have joined on Christian groups who believe that the Jews have no more "special covenant" with God, having been totally rejected by God and now replaced by them, "spiritual Israel."

The reference to the "days cut short or no flesh would be saved", again, is the early ending of WWII and the Holocaust which if extended might have completely exterminated the Jews. Per Bible prophecy though, two-thirds would "pass through the fire" and one third would be saved and restored to Israel, appropriately so on the jubilee year of 1947.

JC

45

Banned From the Bible

by Sweetp0985 in

i may be late in seeing this special on the history channel, but did anyone else see this show.

it was about books being banned from the bible that further explains events that may or may not have happened the way it is written in the bible.

this show peaked my curiousity and i went to the library and found the book who wrote the bible?

JCanon

According to the book "The Jesus Mysteries" they have proven through computer analyses that the later latter that have been attributed to Paul were not written by the same author as the earlier letters by Paul. Some of his latter letters were not added to the Canon until the 2nd or 3rd century. It all comes down to who was the "God" that decided what was inspired scriptures and what was not. It is a good book but that is all it is. It is no more inspired than any other book.
Will

This won't relate well to any but anointed JWs, but it is just a point that some of us who actually believe everything in the Bible and are literalists have to deal with, which sort of affects the final canon. And that is that both Paul and John, the major contributors to the NT never were supposed to have died, but would live on throughout the ages until Jesus returned during the 20th century at the second coming. That's way too hard for some to believe but some of the anointed are actually aware of some of these surviving ancient ones. Obviously one advantage of having some of the first century original Christians survive is to "shepherd" the Bible until it got into a final stable form. I don't know of any historical direct interaction, but one would think that even by the 3rd century there might not have been much choice as far as the final Bible is concerned if there were many copies of the NT writings well distributed and considered by the body of the church as part of the original letters of Paul, etc. Of course, Paul was still alive and would have had that secretive influence. Additionally, just as God put certain persons in place in foreign governments to oversee Jewish matters (i.e. Joseph, Daniel, Nehemiah) this might have been the case as well until the Bible's canon became officially established, to at least include the books the original apostles wanted to include. Somehow three apocryphal books still got into the final canon (Esther, SOS and Ecclesiates) but they were not cross-quoted from by the NT Bible writers.

Thus under this theory, I can only imagine there us always present "sufficient influence" to make sure the Scriptures we know today as "The Bible" is essentially what was God's intended gift to us, mankind in general but particularly to those "anointed ones" who are custodians of God's light.

Satan, of course, would be desperate to create his own works to distract from the scriptures so one would suspect other writings, even of a pseudo-Biblical nature would show up and be promoted in later times by his followers -- so there's that too.

Interesting, but I suppose you have to have "faith" that the essential Bible is serving God's purpose. It's an amazing work and the Dead Sea Scrolls prove it is well preserved. At last the JWs do have a lot of good research on the Bible itself supporting it as a reliable copy of the original works.

Finally, if there appears any "serious" challenges to the current Bible, even perhaps well-faked "originals", is Paul and John had survived all this time then likely they would have perserved some of the ancient writings they thought would be necessary to preempt any real challeges, so there is that. That some of the really ancient original writings are still in position of some secretive Christian cultists that would dismiss any real challenge to scripture. I think the general "myth" about these writings are dealt with as part of the ppoular "Da Vinci Code" reference, that is, that along with the bloodline of Christ surviving, there are all these ancient writings that are supposed to be in existence and revealed at some point; the reference being that some of the original writings, even ancient genealogical records still exist and were preserved.

Now I understand if some think that Paul and John among others is too hard to believe, even though the Bible says they did, but one would think that the importance of these original writings would have been anticipated by Christians and some of the original writings kept secret and handed down and preserved apart from the primary church that would have become "apostate" early on as prophesied. The mere presence of these original writings would serve to keep the pagan influences in the church "honest" as far as the canon was concerned.

Interesting topic.

JC

45

Banned From the Bible

by Sweetp0985 in

i may be late in seeing this special on the history channel, but did anyone else see this show.

it was about books being banned from the bible that further explains events that may or may not have happened the way it is written in the bible.

this show peaked my curiousity and i went to the library and found the book who wrote the bible?

JCanon

14 Yes, the seventh one [in line] from Adam, E´noch, prophesied also regarding them, when he said: "Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads, 15 to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him."

This is very interesting, especially since the Bible does acknowledge other writings. But I'm wondering if the current surviving books are in their original form or if they've been revised or lost. After all, take for instance the Book of Esther. The current "Hebrew" version in most Bible's is a different version than in the earlier version of the LXX. Now Esther is included in the canon for most Bibles but we know it was revised and we know it's not inspired because it historically contradicts the Bible. ???

Further, I think the WTS position is valid as far as the reference to Enoch since it's possible some of his writings did survive or was quoted from, but we don't know the source. That is, we don't know if the reference to what Enoch said was a quote from the current version of "Enoch" we have, or if it was just a quote in some other history the Jews considered reliable and simply did not include in their canon of "sacred" books.

Thus in that regard, I think it is noteworthy to observe that the NT Bible writers managed to quote from every single book of the OT except for three: Esther, Song of Solomon, and Ecclesiastes. Esther and SOS are quite dismissible based upon conflict with the Bible or other context issues, Ecclesiastes was just not quoted from. Thus there is a subjective internal Bible canon I call the "Apostolic Canon", which seems to differentiate or add validity to those books quoted that would be lacking for other books not included. Not that other books can't supplement our understanding of the current Bible as we know it, excluding the three books mentioned above, of course.

I study many of the apocryphal writings as well which have interesting background information, etc. but still put them in a different category than the sacred writings. Obviously, though, if some books conflict with the current gospels and OT that would be a reason of exclusion. They may challenge the current Bible but shouldn't be included in the canon. Lots of historical books contradict each other as far as their version of history, in particular; what else is new!

Thanks for the interesting post! I hope some of these books are available for us to check out and compare.

JC