Posts by JCanon

44

A revelation for me: the revelation of Revelation

by Eyes Open in

i was reading the thread about revelation, and some research i did on the beginning of chapter 10 of the apocalyptic book came to mind, so i thought i'd share it here in case anyone's interested.. as an ignorant jehovah's witness, i had no idea of the real literary structure of the book.

the watchtower society makes out the mighty angel in 10:1 who stands on the sea and earth is jesus christ, and that the contents of the little scroll he hands john is a prophecy to be fulfilled after 1914. to grasp the simple truth that the strong angel in 10:1 is the angel alluded to in 1:1, and that the little scroll is actually the scroll which has been progressively unsealed in 6:1 to 8:1, was very satisfying.

it describes the revelation being given to john, which contains the main content of the prophetic work!.

JCanon

Dear Eyes Open. I do believe you need a further explanation regarding the statements in Revelation about the immediacy of the Christ arriving as you point out. Something I had not fully addressed:

10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.
12"Behold, I am coming soon!
20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

The WTS attempts to resolve this by saying in God's eyes, where 1000 years is like a day that the near 2000-year gap from the time of John to modern times associated with the second coming is a "short time." But I couldn't quite buy that so sought to understand this better. I'm not putting this forth dogmatically but it is where I fell comfortably resolved about the apparent contradiction.

Of note, besides specific direct statements that this is in the context of "the Lord's Day" which definitely is an end-times context, the events themselves are clearly linked with the end-times,such as Satan being kicked out of heaven and the birth of the new imperfect human messiah at the time Satan is kicked out of heaven, the destruction of Babylon the Great, the sealing of the anointed, which cannot happen until Satan is kicked out of heaven, etc. The abundant Bible chronology is specific for some of these events.

So we are not in doubt about when these things take place, nor surmise in any way they were fulfilled during John's day when he wrote the Revelation. So I considered whether we were missing something in the context that would explain why Revelation is making this so immediate for the audience. I was looking for something that would limit and isolate the chronology of the intented audience.

What I came up with is Revelation 1:7 which says:

" 7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen."

This verse is specific to Matthew 24:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

These scriptures limit and make specific who the "tribes of the earth" are, that is, not every nation but specifically only those who would see Christ arrive, his secret anointed ones, those "eagles" who surround the carcass of Jesus at the second coming. So Jesus comes with the clouds quickly in the context of those who would see him arrive. Therefore, within a "generation" mentioned in Matthew 24. It is to these specific "slaves" that Revelation is thus written. Thus we read at Revelation 1:1 in the very first verse:

1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.

Thus we ask are these slaves generally all Christ's slaves? Or specific slaves otherwise identified in scripture who specifically would be involved with these things. If these are specific slaves who would appear first in the context close to when the messiah would arrive, that is within a generation of his arrival, then the context that Jesus would be arriving "quickly" after the their appearance would remove the discrepancy you are addressing. Thus in that regard I refer to the famous parable where Jesus sends out his ten slaves to do work and increase his belongings until he returns "with kingly power." (Luke 19:13)

Thus at a specific time Christ sends out those who would do work just before he arrives. He is not a king when he sends them out but when he returns, he will be a king. This specifically relates to the work of the "last generation" that is 80 years from 1914 to 1994. This is the time when there was a special "planting" and "investing" with slaves who would prepare the way for Christ's arrival as king late in those 80 years at which time he would then pay the slaves for their work and reap the harvest that had grown. For these, therefore, the reference that Christ is coming quickly and that these events would "shortly take place" is consistent with the limit of a generation that Jesus put on the events of the "end times" or his paraousia.

Thus Revelation is specifically for those "slaves" who would be seeing the Christ themselves return, so the context of Jesus coming quickly and in short order is consistent with the time and events being related to.

Thus it would be an inaccurate though understandable presumption that John includes Christians in general as the focus of Revelation including future generations. Instead, Revelation clearly would only be for those who were close enough in time to witness the second coming in short order, those slaves whose "every eye would see him", which are specifically not the entire world, not even Christians in general, but specifically those associated with the eagle-woman mentioned in Revelation (Rev. 12:14) that relate to "Where the carcass is, so the eagles will be gathered togehter." (Matt. 24:24:28).

So it is only the eagles that surround the physical identity of the messiah, who is called a "carcass" because part of the time he is spiritually dead as the prodigal son:

Luke 15: 23 And bring the fattened young bull, slaughter it and let us eat and enjoy ourselves, 24 because this my son was dead and came to life again; he was lost and was found.’ And they started to enjoy themselves.

So everything works out quite well if we understand Revelation was specifically written as a guide for the "slaves" that Jesus would send out during the end-times just prior to his second coming, within a short enough time for those who were doing this work to actually experience his arrival in "kingly power." When specifically directed to them, that generation of slaves who were to see all these things "shortly take place" then this short time is no more than a generation of 80 years, 40 years if you consider the first appearance of the "sign of the son of man" which appears when the new second prodigal son is born in 1950.

So I'm surmising that is what is actually going on here, a specific book for those who would be involved with the actual articulated events leading immediately to the messiah, that is, those slaves who would be sent out to do work during "The Lord's Day".

So THANKS for bringing this out. Sometimes we read things in the Bible and don't fully understand them and we gloss over it, satisfied with so many other resolved Biblical questions. I had not paid much attention to this before you brought it up. But now that you have, I can refine my concept of the focus of Revelation.

Ironically, Glenster helped to clarify this by specifically suggesting the absolute opposite. That is, that Revelation was specifically meant for those living at the time John wrote the Revelation and not for anyone in the future. I had generally considered Revelation to be like the other books, a general reference for all Christians leading up to the last days. But in fact, thanks to both of you, we can clarify that Revelation specifically was written for the future slave generation that would experience the second coming, those slaves sent out in 1914 to create the "eagle woman" congregations, the "tribes of the earth" who would see the messiah with their own eyes, and specifically not for any other generation other than this one, presumably the 1914-1994 generation, with the messiah arriving in 1992 specifically, but sealing into heaven from Passover of 1993.

Again, I aknowledge this might be confusing to some and certainly I can understand if they stand on the idea that John wrote this for those of his time and thus deal with the apparent contradiction, which some tolerate with scripture who don't need it to be "inerrant." But I don't have that option, so I needed to resolve this further and I'm "comfortable" with my interpretation of the literary context for Revelation now.

Since the context throughout Revelation clearly shows Christ coming quickly and shortly, it can only have been directed or relevant to those who would see the messiah arrive themselves, so, it must have specifically been meant for them.

Thanks, again, for an interesting point of refinement!!

By the way, you know that part where it says "those who pierced him will see him?" That means during the second coming scenario with the prodigal son, some who pierce him, spiritually, putting him to death spiritually, would later become his own followers and thus part of the JIOR. This relates to when I was disfellowshipped unjustly by a wayward, over-aggressive and prejudgmental committee whom I sought an "appeal" for. That is, if you're disfellowshipped, and you think the verdict is wrong or that perhaps there were conflicts of interests with the disfellowshipping committee, then you can appeal this and another committee will come in and hear your case, which is a nice arrangement. But that arrangement is ineffective if the committee members chosen for the appeal committee are hand-picked favorites of the disfellowshipping committee. The idea is to get an un-biased look at the situation where perhaps the committee didn't already have personal preconceived ideas about the person on trial. The committee totally violated my "rights" in this case and instead of allowing my case to be heard by an appeals committee who did not know me peronsally, which I specifically requested, they just went to the next congregation and picked their own favorite brothers, all of whom knew me personally as well. So it was a sham. I was disfellowshipped under protest and unjustly. This is the reference to them "piercing" me. When you are disfellowshipped, you are considered "dead." Witnesses even have this folkloric concept that if Armageddon comes while you're disfellowshipped then you're outside Jehovah's favor and unprotected in some way.

At any rate, I must say that the pain of being INSIDE the congregation, which publicly announces you being disfellowshipped and everybody knowing what it's for was more painful than being out. In fact, I had to fight with myself simply on academic and moral issues to protest the decision which I knew was wrong having been "raised in the truth" and being in the truth longer than some of the committee members, because the personal relief of being disfellowshipped was welcomed anyway. I felt more comfortable being out of the truth than I did in at this point. Because I had to live down the image of being gay in public. Think about that. I may have been gay but everybody in the community didn't know my business. Once you get disfellowshipped then that's like a big announcement: HEY THIS GUY IS A HOMOSEXUAL! The whole community knows now and you have to live with that shame and cloud over your head. That part of your very private life is stripped away. So it was painful living that down. It was awkward! I avoided using the rest room for fear some 13-year old might be in there alone with me and someone might think I was doing something. So just go to the meeting with my shades on and sit in front of the hall and ignore the brothers was heaven. I did that for my "pennance" year and they let me back in. But I never forgave them.

But back to those who pierced me, just to fulfill that scripture and to have you understand this is not about those who pierced Jesus, who would have been that one soldier at his cross (oops!). It was those brothers who did injustice to me and disfellowshipped me without cause and violated my appeal process. But, turns out, when all this messiah stuff started unfolding, some of them began JIOR. Three out of six in fact (six including the appeals committee). So that's what that's about. It would be impossible without the specific details to understand how that scripture is fulfilled. That's why truly Revelation is a very closed book on many points with lots of things that will not be understood in any way by the general public. Some things are obvious, like the destruction of Babylon the Great, etc. but many things are just too specific that the JIOR themselves will only appreciate or presume is fulfilled.

So, thanks again Open Eyes and Glenster to helping to refine the understanding of the literary context of Revelation. Jolly good!!!

JC

44

A revelation for me: the revelation of Revelation

by Eyes Open in

i was reading the thread about revelation, and some research i did on the beginning of chapter 10 of the apocalyptic book came to mind, so i thought i'd share it here in case anyone's interested.. as an ignorant jehovah's witness, i had no idea of the real literary structure of the book.

the watchtower society makes out the mighty angel in 10:1 who stands on the sea and earth is jesus christ, and that the contents of the little scroll he hands john is a prophecy to be fulfilled after 1914. to grasp the simple truth that the strong angel in 10:1 is the angel alluded to in 1:1, and that the little scroll is actually the scroll which has been progressively unsealed in 6:1 to 8:1, was very satisfying.

it describes the revelation being given to john, which contains the main content of the prophetic work!.

JCanon

Hi Rapunzel:

J.C. - Although I thank you for your response, I really do find myself obliged to take issue with it. You state that my argument is incompetent. Sorry, but the adjective, 'incompetent," can only refer to a person. The adjective, "incompetent," refers to a person who is wanting [or lacking] in ability, skills, qualifications etc; it refers to a person who is not competent. Ud. comprende, vato?

adjective

Lacking capability: inadequate, incapable, unequal, unfit, unqualified. Seeability/inability, excess/insufficiency/enough.
Totally incapable of doing a job: unable, unfit, unqualified. Seeability/inability.
Lacking the qualities, as efficiency or skill, required to produce desired results: inapt, incapable, inefficient, inept, inexpert, unskilled, unskillful, unworkmanlike. Seeability/inability.

These definitions are not restricted to a person. By contrast, I believe you are quite competent in delivery your point of view. I believe I did understand you quite well. So I wouldn't call you incompetent. But your argument is incompetent in that it is "incapable of doing the job" of establishing the immediate context for Revelation, when Revelation itself clearly says this is a vision for "The Lord's Day", which the Bible specifically dates to a time after 1874 and more specifically after 1914, after 1947, after 1950, after 1960, after 1989 and after December 26, 1992.

When you make the claim that this apocalyptic work was for that specific time and not for any future generations, when there is a direct statement of chronology describing specifically when these things would take place, that is, during the "Lord's Day" then then your position is not "weak", it is WRONG, which is another way of saying it is competent since it is baseless. There is ZERO basis for dating this work relevant to its contemporary writing when it specifically dates it to another time. You and/or your argument are making an "unqualified" assessment.

Oh and...

Hmmmm, I guess there's an alternative common usage of "mite" as "might" in popular culture. Maybe that's where I got it from. But thanks for the technical note. I wonder if spelled as "might" misconveys the meaning of the phrase? Or perhaps there are two paralell different meanings conveyed when "Widow's mite" vs "Widow's might" are used. My intent was to convey "The Widow's Might" in the context it is understood in the above book title.

Thanks.

JC

24

ENOCH & the Watchtower Society

by Honesty in

genesis 5.

5 so all the days of adam that he lived amounted to nine hundred and thirty years and he died.

8 so all the days of seth amounted to nine hundred and twelve years and he died.

JCanon

He insisted that Enoch died, but could not produce Biblical evidence that it was so.

Interesting but inaccurate. The fact that the age of Enoch is given in the context of the ages the others died is sufficient reference that he died. "He was no more" is also an alternative reference that he died. So there is nothing in scripture that contradicts his death and at least two references consistent with death, though his death was unusual. Thus there is no foundation for venturing past "the obvious" here.

You have to consider the exceptional choice of terms here for referencing the death of the others, which is in the context of a natural death of old age. That was not the case for Enoch. If I say five family members died in their 80's and I had one family member who was killed in his 50s, I'm not implying that person didn't "die" just being more specific about the manner of death, since "died" without a more specific statement generally is taken to meant died naturally or due to sickness.

JC

44

A revelation for me: the revelation of Revelation

by Eyes Open in

i was reading the thread about revelation, and some research i did on the beginning of chapter 10 of the apocalyptic book came to mind, so i thought i'd share it here in case anyone's interested.. as an ignorant jehovah's witness, i had no idea of the real literary structure of the book.

the watchtower society makes out the mighty angel in 10:1 who stands on the sea and earth is jesus christ, and that the contents of the little scroll he hands john is a prophecy to be fulfilled after 1914. to grasp the simple truth that the strong angel in 10:1 is the angel alluded to in 1:1, and that the little scroll is actually the scroll which has been progressively unsealed in 6:1 to 8:1, was very satisfying.

it describes the revelation being given to john, which contains the main content of the prophetic work!.

JCanon

Hello Rapunzel. Your approach is interesting and sent me to reading Revelation in the context of a work written for the current readers. I immediately came across verse 10 of chapter 1 which states: "By inspiration I came to be inthe Lord's day..."

So written for those for his time or not, the visions have the setting of "The Lord's Day" which are the end-times. As far as Daniel not being prophetic, your argument is incompetent because of the time prophecies in Daniel, specifically the "7 times" prophecy, which is applied to the "day for a year" formula (Ezk 4:6) you are dealing with a period of 2520 years. Further, as witnesses and others have also extrapolated from scripture, there is the 70 jubilees prophecy. This is the basis of the original 1925 hope/focus the Bible Students came up with. That is a period of 3500 years.

So anyone suggesting that Daniel or Revelation were books written for the people of their time, when the Daniel clearly speaks of these mysteries being "sealed up" until the last days and Revelation set in the setting of the "Lord's Day" is simply naieve or uninformed. Your theory that Revelation is typical "apocalytic" literature written to occur in the immediate future sounds interesting at first but it falls apart after just 10 verses into Revelation.

But ironically, this shows us how critical CHRONOLOGY is. It not only points to specific dates and times but also limits the loose intellectual speculation and generalizations. What we are observing is what I believe would generally a reasonable approach to this literature but without the crticial expertise to adequately understand the weakness or inappropriateness of this position. Daniel is full of CHRONOLOGY and it links to many specific things in Revelation that also dates Revelation's events, even beyond the direct statement that clearly sets this into the future during "The Lord's Day" meaning at the time of the second coming.

Case in point, even in Revelation 1 there is a reference to the Lord arriving and those beating themselves in lamentation over him and every eye setting him. That is a direct link to Matthew 24 where the "sign of the son of man" appears and likewise those that see it beat themselves in lamentation. This links chronologically Revelation to this very timed event in Matthew. The "great tribulation" per Daniel occurs between 62 weeks and 64 weeks. That is, during the 63 week. That is, between 434 and 441 years into the final 490 years of the seventh jubilee day, which is from 1506 to 1996.

In other words, the "cut off" of the messiah, which in this case would be the Jews, occurs after 62 weeks, which is 434 years, and thus begins in 1940 (1506 +434=1940). It lasts for one week, which is 7 years and thus ends in 1947. That is when two-thirds of the Jews were to pass through the fire and one third saved and restored to their homeland per Zechariah 13:8. The "sign of the son of man" occurs "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." and thus at the very least after 1945, more specifically after 1947, the official end of the tribulation and trampling of Jerusalem by the gentiles.

So to say that the Christians or the writer of Revelation did not have us in mind is beyond inane, to use your own terms. It's a joke, in fact. My only excuse for your position being that you simply don't understand the depth of the material nor the significance of the chronology. But I still found it an interesting intellectual take on trying to water down the significance of this inspired work.

It strikes historical interest, however, when you read through the Dead Sea Scrolls and some of that other "apocalytic" literature. It is amazingly supplemental to the scriptures, even if it varies a bit from the Bible. So there were other works, but I think even those extra--Biblical works were clearly understood and anticipated to happen at some time in the distant future. Christians in general understood the "Lord's Day" was well into the future.

Your position reads well, I must say and got me curious, but it immediately falls apart with the slightest investigation, I'm afraid. Thanks for sharing what some people out there are thinking.

JC

19

June 15th 2008 Study edition of The Watchtower

by fokyc in

june 15th 2008 study edition of the watchtower can be downloaded here as a pdf file, it is ocr'd and bookmarked:.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/b05tqk.

don't forget, you can also listen to this item here:.

JCanon

Thanks for posting this. It's great to be out/free!

JC

5

The 144,000, a Subset of "Spiritual Israel"?

by DNCall in

this is an alternative to "spiritual israel" and the 144,000 being one and the same.. two scriptures might support the subset idea:.

first, revelation 7:4-8 states that the 144,000 are "out of" the 12 symbolic tribes of "spiritual israel"--12,000 "out of" each tribe.

this would indicate to me that "spiritual israel" is a larger body than the 144,000 (whether a literal number or not).. second, the new covenant is said to be between god and "spiritual israel," entitling its members to be children of god and brothers of christ.

JCanon

Hi OBVES, your numbers are fascinating. I hadn't realized the connection between the 400 years and 4000 years. Every number in the Bible likely has a deeper meaning.

4000 years in association with an 8000-year week can be comparable to half that time. Christ's "theme" is the 3.5 times, half the time of Seven which could be considered the number of reference for perfection in heaven and thus Jehovah. Interestingly, a work I've never been able to find in research but that is spoken of is that of Venerable Bede who wrote about the history of the English Church. He also wrote about chronology and gave forth the observation that the two festivals of the Jews that last a week each, each begin with the third week, that is, from the 15th to the 21st. By comparison to the 7000-year day of Christ reign, since it is the 7th day of the 7th day and thus the 49th, it will be followed by the first "Creative Jubilee". That is, the first day of the 8th Creative Day is the 50th 1000 years of creation. When we add the jubilee millennium to the 7th Creative day of 7000 years we convert to the concept of the month of 4 weeks and thus can compare the third week festival.

But how that works out is in a month of 8000 years, 4000 years is half that time and 4000 the other half. But the second half begins after the first 4000 years. Each week would be 2000 years each. So the time period of the third week is the 2000 years of the Christ's first and second coming. The last 2000 years basically would be the two millenial sabbaths.

So for the first 4000 years the world did not know Christ. They were in "bondage" in a certain way like the Jews were in Egypt until Moses appeared to save them. The Bible speaks of those who are anointed into the kingdom as being even greater than John the Baptist who among all the prophets was considered the greatest. So something did happen of great significance in terms of mankind's bondage after 4000 years.

At the same time, Christ celebrates the half week, the 1260 alternating with the 1290 days, of a "time, time and half time."

REGARDING THE "LIFE OR DEATH" MULTITUDE: I know it gets complex but basically we all have to face the fact that it makes little sense for everybody to be a king-priest. A king and priest needs to have others under their care and direction. We also know from several scriptures that a specific NUMBER is to be sealed. A preordained and prescribed number. Holy Jerusalem, who represents the Bride of Christ is described as the Holy City with 12 gates, etc. etc. So clearly this heavenly group is either 144,000 or 1,440,000 fundamentally. My first reflection on the number being greater than 144,000 is based upon the number in the JIOR, who are everywhere. Once I reflected on the obvious numbers being sealed I was led to Isaiah 6:13 where it shows a natural remnant of the Jews would make up 10%. The 144,000 in Revelation, though it could be symbolic, also specifically note 12,000 from each tribe.

But that works out with the 400 years of bondanage the 4000 years of bondage. 400 years of bondage for the Israelites before their savior comes, and 4000 years for mankind in general before their savior comes, directly in relation to Passover week as well. So given a choice of merely 1,440,000 or 1,440,000 I lean toward that greater number, which means the 144,000 of 12,000 from each tribe I consider to be literal. Of course, over all this time for that to be literal, turns out the 12 tribes or descendants of the 12 tribes have to be reconstituted again during the end times. "One will becoming a thousand... I will speed it up in its own time." One or several from each of the 12 tribes who can prove their lineage from the first century during Jesus day were chosen to survive down to our time. The fact that the Jewish Christians considered themselves in two groups is clear by the Scriptures. In 1 Thess 4:15 Paul is explaining to some of the Christians that those "who SURVIVE DOWN TO THE LORD'S DAY" will not get their heavenly prize before those who have fallen asleep in death:

15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that wethe living who SURVIVEto the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward wethe living who are SURVIVING will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

See? Two groups. Some knew they would "survive" and some knew they would die and be surrected. They were just wondering how that technically worked out when Christ came who would get their heavenly reward first. A very practical question. The answer is that they ALL, TOGETHER get their heavenly prize. No one in one group preceeds the other. Of course, when Paul said the dead would rise first then "after" all would be caught away, he doesn't exactly let on that from the time of the first resurrection until the so-called "rapture" ALL of them will be still on the earth in the flesh, ruling for 1000 years with Christ first, then during the time of Satan's last stand and temptation (likely 40 years), and then after that JUDGMENT DAY, likely 70-80 years. Then, after death is no more, as 1 Corinthians 15 says, it is then that corruption will put on incorruption, that those in the flesh will become spirits.

But let's step back. These 144,000 aren't going up to heaven to sip on pina coladas all day just because they get chosen to be with Christ. That crown and glory comes after a lot of self-sacrifice and work. They are chosen because they give up their lives for Christ and their fellow believers. So they are chosen for the great ministry of king-PRIEST, to serve the world of mankind tha survive Armageddon. There is a LOT of work to be done to save the others. So by the time they get their crown and get to go up to heaven, they alongside the Christ will have served well during the 1000 years and during Judgment Day. They will every bit have earned that seat at the Big Karaoke Bar In Heaven (that's right the angels like to sing, don't be surprised! )

So that addresses who is actually in heaven figuratively or literally. Everybody "under" the throne or "in front of" the throne doesn't constitute they are up in heaven. The concept of being under the throne or before it can still be a concept of them being on earth, since the earth is God's footstool. Further, since ALL the anointed, whether 144,000 or 1,440,000 will be back in the flesh with Christ for the millennium reign, and no one of them preceeds the other to their heavenly prize, there is not a divided group with respect to who is in heaven and who is not.

But of course, I respectively acknowledge, some some things at this level, that there is an open question, and some options, perhaps that are left to God's own discretion for us to understand now. But from my perspective, there are two major groups who get LIFE or DEATH. Within the LIFE group there are some who receive "a few strokes" and some who receive "many strokes." Those who receive the "few strokes" are denied access to the Bride Class. They miss out. Maybe because of not paying attention or something. But they are not considered wicked. They are like Moses who misstep and miss out on seeing the Promised Land. Then there are those who receive many strokes. These are the ones that lose out completely and are condemned to death.

So the first challenge for "life" is life as a Bride Class member. That's the greatest prize for any human. Missing that, there is the chance for for eternal life with billions of other humans on the earth. So for those who don't measure up to the Bride Class level, most will fall into the second class of the "great multitude" who gain life on Judgment Day. These will have a life of being perfect humans on the earth.

But from this point, it's possible some from the earth will be taken to seed other planets throughout the universe. After all, eternity is in view. That's an OPTION but pure speculation. But if Jehovah does decide to do that, there is a guarantee that the volunteers to be the first couples in these new worlds will not sin. For one thing, there will be no Satan and secondly, they've already been tested. Their children will have to attain the right to eternal life at some point, but that will be a brand new chapter. New Books. New rules. So you see, suddenly FOREVER is just barely enough time.

Do you realize further, that even with say 4 billion mankind who might attain eternal life in the Paradise New Earth, will "neither marry nor give into marriage, but will be like the angels." The angels don't marry but are androgynous. But that doesn't mean they don't make love with each other!! Once man becomes like the angels, androgynous and no longer procreative, then the entire world will be like in an open marriage. Each human on the planet in their own special way, will be God's gift to every other human. Getting to know a person and love them is the greatest thing. So I'm imagining some organized means by which this will take place. But let's say a computer matches every human with every other human, to live with them in a "domestic" setting for one year, alternated by an open year where that person can do what they want? A year is enough time to meet and get to know someone generally, especially if you're cooperating in a living arrangement. But that process alone will take 8 BILLION YEARS. It's mind boggling. Do you realize how long it will take just to catch up on the gossip once every human knows every other human?

At any rate, we are now on the brink of the millennium, a near 6000-year wait, so this is a very, very special time!

Thanks for your comments OBVES and others.

JC

5

The 144,000, a Subset of "Spiritual Israel"?

by DNCall in

this is an alternative to "spiritual israel" and the 144,000 being one and the same.. two scriptures might support the subset idea:.

first, revelation 7:4-8 states that the 144,000 are "out of" the 12 symbolic tribes of "spiritual israel"--12,000 "out of" each tribe.

this would indicate to me that "spiritual israel" is a larger body than the 144,000 (whether a literal number or not).. second, the new covenant is said to be between god and "spiritual israel," entitling its members to be children of god and brothers of christ.

JCanon

The key text for this topic is Isaiah 6:13:

13 And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump; a holy seed will be the stump of it.”

Essentially the whole of spiritual Israel is likened to an olive tree. Thus the gentile Christians are said to be "spiritual Israel" because they are wild olives grafted into the tree where natural olives were lopped off. But the "root" still remains that of natural Jews.

So yes, the 144,000 are a subset of "spiritual Israel", precisely 10%. That means the entire number is 1,440,000.

There is one correction in your concept though and that is the 12,000 from each tribe is not "figurative", but literal. But it takes a miracle to fulfill this technical detail. It is difficult but not impossible. Essentially, Jesus chose ones from each of the 12 tribes who could prove their lineage never to die and thus "survive" down to our day. At some point sufficiently before the second coming, these individuals would marry ingo the modern population and by the time the messiah came, the 12 tribes of Israel would have been reestablished. That's in case you were going to ask.

Hard to believe but that's what the Bible indicates. Among those who would never die are John and Paul. Also of note, the messiah returns in the flesh twice. The first time through the line of Judah but the second time through the line of Joseph. It is possible to prove lineage to the 12 tribes because you only have to go back several generations, maybe 150 years to those 1st century surviving ancestors who have maintained their proof of lineage to the 12 tribes.

That's what the Bible teaches and that is what has happened.

JC

34

Did the Bible really predict or say anything of substance?

by moshe in

i often read comments like this about the bible here:.

well, the bible is the only source we have for guidance and direction.

if you read it you will know that such knowledge and wisdom could not have originated with man because more times than none, man acts in opposition to what is written in the bible.. it also foretells the future.

JCanon

Well, I have asked myself why the Bible didn't predict the Internet? Or the telegraph, or radio/TV or even electricity? It didn't predict modern vaccines and antibiotics which have eliminated the past pandemics and scourges like the black death of Europe and smallpox that wiped out whole civilizations, or X-rays or atomic energy or landing a man on the moon. People see what they want to see in the Bible.

You are mistaken. Some prophecies cannot be fulfilled without the INTERNET or modern inventions like the TV. Cases in point:

Christ is supposed to appear like LIGHTENING!! That means a bright flash from coast to coast but for a short time!!! How is that fulfilled. How can the anointed see the messiah over a wide area but for a short period? TELEVISION!! The messiah will appear on television!! He will do a cameo spot, just a few minutes on national television. All the anointed who are tuned in can see him. From coast to coast! But just for a few minutes. Thus that is how that is fulfilled!!!

Or, there is the passage where when the messiah arrives he has to preach in the "broad ways" of those who will get to know him personally, like him personally, but will not really take him seriously at first and reject him. Then when the door is closed and/or it is clear that Armageddon is coming, they will them scamble to try and get into the kingdom and remind him of his relationship with them previously.

How does that work. How does the messiah come and "teach in their broad ways"?

Luke 13: 25 when once the householder has got up and locked the door, and YOU start to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Sir, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to YOU , ‘I do not know where YOU are from.’ 26 Then YOU will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in front of you, and you taught in our broad ways.’ 27 But he will speak and say to YOU , ‘I do not know where YOU are from. Get away from me, all YOU workers of unrighteousness!’ 28 There is where [ YOUR ] weeping and the gnashing of [ YOUR ] teeth will be..."

When Christ arrives he teaches in some type of public forum where people will get to know him personally, but reject him as the messiah. They like him but don't take him seriously! That is fulfilled by these DISCUSSION BOARDS!!! People think I'm funny and are nice enough to suggest I need medical help. Which I guess means they think I'm not lying purposefully. They believe I believe what I'm saying, but I must be deluded. So really the folks are basically quite nice. So that's fulfilled. I'm the messiah and they get to know me personally at some level. That's possible because of the INTERNET!!!

So contextually, television and the internet were indeed anticipated by the Bible!!! I was seen like LIGHTENING from coast to coast, but only with a flash, when I appeared on national television on 20/20 or on the Gong Show once, which apparently was syndicated worldwide at the time.... So indeed, like "lightening" I appeared from coast to coast but only for a short flash. Any of the anointed who knew who I was, by holy spirit could have tuned in and seen me. Otherwise, the messiah has a private life.

So really, some modern inventions, specifically the TV and the internet are absolutely included in Bible prophecy.

JC

5

Why does the Great Crowd have faith in the resurrection?

by moomanchu in

jw's believe in two resurections the heavenly (spiritual) and earthly (physical).. jesus died and was resurrected as a spirit.. therefore the 144,000 can look back on this event and have faith that.

the resurrection will happen.. the earthly resurrection never has happened as taught by jw's.

how can the great crowd have faith in the resurrection.

JCanon

Hi moomanchu.

Who believes in the resurrection depends on which anointed you are talking to.

But just to be blunt though I realize you can't believe what I say, possibly, even though it's in the Bible, you should know these facts:

1. The 144,000 are just Jews; 12,000 from each tribe. They make up 1/10th of the entire number, which is 1,440,000. This is based on Isa 6:13. So when I refer to the 144K I will just say "Bride Class". But so you know, it's really 1,440,000 total who become of the heavenly class.

2. When Christ resurrects those for the first resurrection it's back into the flesh! And this has to occur before the second coming! So if the second coming occurred in either 1914 (607BCE), 1934 (587 BCE) or 1992 (529 BCE), then the resurrection of those part of the 1st resurrection should have occurred already. These are resurrected back into the FLESH because they rule with Christ for 1000 years on the earth! Now doesn't that make sense? Does it make more sense that they go right up to heaven, all 144K+ to try and rule the earth for 1000 years? I mean, how are they going to do that? Appear in visions for their designated "other sheep" PO's to communicate with them? No way. They are right here on the earth to have hands-on management of the affairs of the earth during the millennium.

Thus if the Bible is true and Christ would have already arrived based upon the available dates for the fall of Jerusalem, then WHERE ARE THEY? 1 Corinthians 15 tells us. Basically it says the first resurrection is first sown into a physical body then raised in a spiritual one. They are sown into corruption and raised in incorruption. They are sown in weakness and raised up in strength. Meaning? Meaning that the bodies they are sown into first are everybody physical bodies of other humans (see, I told you wouldn't believe me). But that makes the resurrection invisible.

But don't PANIC! Just one "seed" of a resurrected person to share one body:

1 Cor 15: 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and to each of the seeds its own body.

Now basically, there are two groups of anointed. Those who are part of the eagle-woman's organization, made up of many secret socities who know Christ in person after his arrival. And then there are the "remaining ones of her seed" who are public anointed, whom Satan can see. Satan cannot see the organizations that exist in secret. These two groups are those who are in the banquet of the prodigal son and of the older brother who is left out. Two groups, but both approved. The insider group, the ones who experience the messiah directly have more information and can accept more of the reality of what the Bible says. Thus they already know about the resurrection of the ancient ones into the bodies of modern ones. For instance, I know Peter and Daniel. Or I should say, they know me. That is, I know their modern identities. It just happened that way by coincidence, I suppose -- or maybe not. But anyway, we have no problem believing in the resurrection because it has already occurred.

By the way, think about how this works out as far as orientation. Imagine someone coming out of the graveyard speaking a foreign language and needing a social security number and to be taken care of? It would take lots of time, maybe years for two people to get that person updated and oriented to the modern world, including learning a new language and studying all the history that took place. What a waste of time! But if they are resurrected within the modern person themselves, then they instantly know everything and speak a modern tongue, PLUS they are invisible! How NEAT!!!

But that reflects on Christ too. The first time he had to be perfect so had to be born as an infant. But the second time he doesn't and he just gets "downloaded" like the resurrected ones, into one of the modern anointed ones!!

So everything has been fulfilled and the 1st resurrection has occurred, just as the Bible says.

Now remember 1 Thess 4:15 where some of the Christians were concerned over whether those alive when Christ arrived would get their heavenly prize ahead of those who had to be resurrected? But they ALL get their heavenly prize together. But that's because they are ALL in the flesh again, with Christ for the entire millennium and then Judgment Day after that!!! So they don't actually go to heaven until after Judgment Day is over, which is after the millennium and after Satan is killed in the lake of fire.

So the WTS' concept of some of the anointed going straight to heaven now when they die, when the Bible clearly says ALL of them are changed at the same time in the "twinkling of an eye" TOGETHER is just unbilical. They still haven't figured out how some of the anointed who might survive Armageddon will end up dying and going to heaven to allegedly join the others already up in heaven. But that's because they don't understand what's really hapening. They are in spiritual darkness. The ONLY way all the anointed can become angels at exactly the same time is that ALL of them are in the flesh at the same time just before that happens. And that is clearly only when Death, man's last enemy is destroyed. 1 Corin 15:54

54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.”

And when is death swallowed up forever? Not until the last sinner is cast into the lake of fire and everybody else has eternal life. Then death is cast into the lake of fire. But that is after Judgment Day, after the millennium! So NOBODY is up in heaven from the earth yet. Christ was the first to go to heaven who had come from the earth, but now even he's back here on the earth in another human body.

So, trust me, the WTS is CLULESS as far as the accurate truth is concerned, regarding the resurrection and dozens of other things. And you can tell they are just stumbling in the dark. But the actual REALITY is hard to accept unless you're of the anointed, so I can understand if you can't accept it. But that's the way it goes. The day of Jehovah is one of "thick gloom" and darkness. Even some of the anointed remain in darkness until the millennium begins and then everybody will be updated and revealed.

But it's actually VERY WONDERFUL. If you knew who the modern Daniel and Peter are, you'd be most pleased. They are both such nice people. Very spiritual brothers. And both still active in the truth, too! Undercover, obviously. I'm OUT, where I belong, so...whatever.

Hope this helped. It's not hard for some of us to believe in the resurrection at all...

JC

8

Help finding a scripture

by jookbeard in

been trying to find a scripture i think o/t that is used to counter react the wts twisting of their adherence to abstaining from blood and all things strangled etc, the scripture speaks about if you obey a law of god that could threaten your life that you should rather save your own life rather than adhere to the law, anyone know where i'm coming from?

JCanon

I don't know if this is what you are remembering, but if an animal was found killed by a wild beast and thus not properly drained, you had permission to eat it. The only stipulation was that you were unclean for the evening. If you touched a dead body you'd become unclean, or if you had sex.

Lev 17: 15 As for any soul that eats a body [already] dead or something torn by a wild beast, whether a native or an alien resident, he must in that case wash his garments and bathe in water and be unclean until the evening; and he must be clean. 16 But if he will not wash them and will not bathe his flesh, he must then answer for his error.’”

So in the context of what you are getting at, there is no life-threatening necessity to eat blood-stained food that was otherwise not able to e drained properly. In other words, if you happened to have found a deer killed by a lion that was still relatively fresh with some whole parts and you wanted to eat it, even though it was improperly drained, you could go ahead and eat it. Only you'd has to wash and be unclean until the evening. That's all.

This reflects on the context of another scripture in the gospel where if you were at the home of an unbeliever and they served you something sold in a meat market, ostensibly possibly not kosherly drained, you were to eat up making no inquiry about your conscience:

1 Cor. 10: 25 Everything that is sold in a meat market keep eating, making no inquiry on account of YOUR conscience; 26 for “to Jehovah belong the earth and that which fills it.” 27 If anyone of the unbelievers invites YOU and YOU wish to go, proceed to eat everything that is set before YOU , making no inquiry on account of YOUR conscience.

So in other words, it's no big deal whether something is drained properly or not. If you're buying food in a public place you don't need to check and see if it was drained properly. You should make "no inquiry" about that. If an unbeliever invites you to eat, enjoy! That's because actually eating blood is no big deal as far as the Bible is concerned, and it wasn't a big deal with respect to undrained meat that was already dead. The only difference is, now since the Law was out of the way, there was no ceremonial uncleanness issue involved.

To put into perspective and reconcile, therefore, the rule about "abstaining from blood," we must examine the reason behind restrictions on food. The key factor here is the weak conscience of others. Everything was to be eaten, zero restrictions, including something not properly drained. But... if someone else's conscience was involved, and they had a hang-up about it, then you didn't eat out of respect for them and their weak conscience, not because it was a sin.

Thus the context of that rule for the congregation was because so many Jews having lived under the law and always eaten kosher foods was that there consciences were still weak and they were not able to just drop their feelings about eating blood. So out of respect for them, Christians were told to "abstain from blood." But that was clearly only when you were around other Christians. As soon as you were in the house of an unbeliever, you could eat whatever you wanted and were not supposed to be concerned about where the meat came from or whether it was properly drained or not. Because it didn't matter. "Abstaining from blood" was thus simply a courtesy to the Jewish Christians who had weak consciences. But even so, this was not a great difference from the Levitical rule that if you did want to eat something not drained properly that was already dead, it was perfectly okay, except you'd be unclean until the evening, meaning you could not come to the temple, which was considered holy.

Therefore, you don't really need to argue about breaking any rule against blood in case it is a life-death situation, because there IS NO LAW AGAINST BLOOD. There was only a circumstantial congregational rule for Christians in Jewish communities back then to avoid it. It was a "concession" for the weak consciences of the Jews. But otherwise, the Bible clearly says if you're in the home of an unbeliever, meaning someone not likely to have these blood issues, then you were not to worry about "abstaining from blood" or have any concerns about any dietary issues because they were not at all a Christian's concern. Everything in the Law that was unclean was now acceptable to eat.

LIFE-THEATENING SITUATIONS: Even so per the above, there is a clear principle as well, that if something was life-threatening that violating the letter of Law was permitted, as Jesus demonstrated the hypocrisy of those who condemned him for healing on the sabbath when they would rescue a domestic animal that might have fallen into a ditch on the sabbath, etc.

Bottom line, the witnesses have missed the point again. They have gone way overboard in insisting blood transfusions violate a strict Biblical rule against intake of blood into the body when there isn't any such rule against eating blood except out of respect for the weak conscience of someone else, in this case, the Jews. But that situation is hardly the case now.

So the scripture to really combat the blood issue would be:

1) If you could eat blood in the house of an unbeliever or be instructed not to inquire about meat sold publicly, then clearly there is no blood issue, and the rule about "abstaining from blood" was simply conditional to the Jewish congregations. There is no Christian obligation to avoid blood or any other food.

2) Even under the Law, eating blood of an undrained animal was permitted under certain circumstances. So it wasn't that STRICT of a rule even under the Law. In fact, it wasn't even a sin. It just made you unclean for the evening.

APOSTASY OF WTS: Finally, the WTS rules against any "foods", including blood and tobacco is part of what makes them the antichrist and the evil slave.

1 Tim 4:1 However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth. 4 The reason for this is that every creation of God is fine, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is sanctified through God’s word and prayer over [it].

The WTS thus has this rule as the result of demonic influence. They were not supposed to condemn the use of tobacco or blood, making it a disfellowshipping offense. And they were not suposed to break up legal polygamous marriages. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that condemns polygamy, only a restriction of those who do have more than one wife from serving in the congregation. But not because those with wives were unworthy, but because a man with two wives already has a "congregation" of his own to deal with and his time was already clearly taken up. That rule was to prevent the congregational issues to come ahead of familial responsibilities. A man with two wives would not reasonably have the free time to serve in the congregation. In the meantime, God's law says that the marriage tie was not to be broken except on the grounds of fornication. Yet the WTS does indeed violate that rule, causing some brothers in Africa to divorce their legal wives in order to be in the congregation, thus causing the same degree of harm and shame for these families as preventing some brothers who desire to to have a blood transfusion. All the talk about AIDS and diseases caught via blood transfusions would have zero significance for an autologous blood transfusions (i.e. where someone ancipating an operation donated their own blood for use in the operation.)

So you see, the WTS fulfilles completely the title of the "man of LAWLESSNESS" 2 Thess 2:4 assigns them! Forbidding blood transfusions isn't only just an extra burden on the congregation, it actually violates the Bible's rules that Christians have ZERO DIETARY RESTRICTIONS. Nothing you take into your body defiles you! Only what comes out of the heart. So why are JWs avoiding tobacco and blood? It's one of Satan's influences over the WTS as prophesied, that they would become apostate and go astray.

I'm going outside right now and have a cigarette! (But I don't inhale!! )

JC