Posts by JCanon

139

IS IT FAIR TO PAY THE SAME DEBT TWICE?? Divine Justice...

by Terry in

thinking out loud.... .

justice.. topics that need discussing.

justice is getting what you deserve.

JCanon

Where does INHERITED SIN become JUSTICE?

Good question. But actually, from the Biblical point of view, the moment Adam sinned is when he died and that's when all his unborn children died too.

So let's flashback to Eden and what God could have done. Adam sinned. He could have been put to death, along with Eve. God would have executed Satan as well. Then he'd just make a brand new couple, and start over. Is that justice? YES.

But God didn't do that. Because if he had, technically when Adam died, then the several billion of his children would have died as well and all those potential people from Adam's DNA would never have been born. God could see into the future and see all those potential people. Abraham, Daniel, Moses, Ricky Martin, Goldie Hawn and Brad Pitt! What a LOSS. What a shame these people would never be born, right?

Well! How to save them? How to get them from under this horrible predicament so that JUSTICE is served but somehow the unborn children would have a chance at life.

I KNOW! The Ransome Sacrifice! What is Adam's children were adopted by someone who gave up his right to have children and they were adopted? Then that would remove Adam's curse of death on them. Okay. That works! They can get a second chance by adoption.

But that would require the death of a righteous man. He'd have to give up his perfect human life on behalf of mankind, and then give up that perfect body as a sacrifice, never to be taken up again. Okay, great. A second chance.

LOGISTICS: But how? Well, in order to do that, it's the logistics of allowing enough time for as many of Adam's children to be born as possible, say over close to 6000 years. They would all be born but would be born in imperfect bodies and eventually die. No problem. Because on Judgment Day they would all be brought back, judged righteous or unrighteous based upon what they did with their short temporary life, and then those who deserve life will be granted it! So JUSTICE would be served, but also a second chance.

But, in order to get the second-chance life, one must be born and then die, except those who are alive whenJudgment Day begins, of course. So that death they die is really not a penalty they are paying. It's just the fact that they do not have the physical ability to live past old age due to imperfection.

The fact that this is not a "judgment" death, is proven because some who die, who did horrible things or rejected Jesus, for instance, will come back on Judgment Day, just to see what they missed, have their life reviewed and will then be thrown into the lake of fire to experience a permanent death, called "the second death." So did their initial death erase their sins from their lives? No. Those sins will be held against them, and they will die by those sins. If they are righteous, they will live. I don't mean minor sins of imperfection, but serious sins of choice. That's why there will be human judges to draw the line.

So don't think of death as paying twice, because it really isn't, since all these people will come back on Judgment Day. Further it is necessary to be born in sin and imperfection to have a second chance. That's the only way to save Adam's children. Now, we can't find fault with God for this arrangement, since the alternative is that you and Goldie Hawn never would have been born. Now which do you prefer? God's arrangement where at least you have a second chance? Or never to have been born along with all the amazing people throughout time who are the childen of Adam?

Now it was a high price to pay, Jesus having to die and all, and all the confusion and fuss involving Satan and getting him put out of his misery permanently and all, but in the end all will be well and the universe will be a far better place than before, being without wickedness and those who inspire wickedness, like Satan. It's a high price but God considers it worth it. He would prefer that YOU had a second chance, whether than being snuffed out without a chance of life in Eden as Satan planned for YOU.

JCanon

59

Flood of Gilgamesh written long before Noahs flood. Look at how simular!!

by Lady Liberty in

dear friends,.

lately i have been re-researching some things i learned as i was leaving the borg.

for lurkers and newbies, i thought i would share this with you.. apparently long before the flood of noah, was a story told and recorded on 12 clay tablets, of a flood so simular to noahs that it will be shocking to you if you have never read about it.

JCanon

Frankiespeakin:

Yes haveing "Absolute Faith" in the bible even in the face of reason, and well founded scientific evidence, is the same as believing in a lie reguardless of the facts just believe and everything will be alright.
Keep in mind too, that Jehovah likes playing games with the wise of the earth.
This is a laughable conclusion that many of the hard core fundamentalist reach when they can't prove thier point "God put the dinosaur bones there and made them appear million of years old just to fool the wise scientist" and former beleivers too,, total bull shit.

Two points:

1) For the anointed "scientific" investigation includes what you learn by direct observation. So if you've seen and spoken with God personally, or seen some miracle directly, then that trumps out any scientific theory. So it's not simply faith in the Bible any more we have to deal with. But the evidence we see that we attribute to God.

2) At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. 26 Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you.

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own cunning.”

Which is another way to say, when applicable, God gives them enough rope to hang themselves with!

So the idea that God "plays games" or likes tripping up the wise or those who think they are so wise, is quite how God is and it is stated so in the Bible. Then if that is "laughable" that's fine, but it's not because I made it up or because its not in the Bible.

So in reality, those of us who have seen God personally or an angel, have direct proof of the truth. If scientists saw God or had other direct proof of God, then all their theories probably would simply be edited and adapted to the reality of God being part of all of this. But right now, not having seen God, they are working in a vaccuum and so their theories have no parameters and often don't include God. So even though we can see some of this stuff is the scientists interpretation of these issues which seem to contradict God, we believe ultimately there is an explanation of this evidence that is perfectly in harmony with this God; including the fact that we know scientists change their minds on their pet theories every 15 minutes. They are always learning something new and revising themselves. So...

So, what Jehovah has done for the anointed today, to combat all this propaganda is simply shown more of himself, confirmed the reality of his existence in line with his plan, before he shows himself to the world at Armageddon. So this gives us the assurance to relax and not worry about the chatter of scientists, fortunately. We have more than simply faith in the Bible now. We have direct observation that God is real and alive. This puts us in a better position to dismiss these scientific claims, even if we have no other explanation than it contradicts our beliefs and personal experience. But FUNNY, we can do this by dismissing only pseudo-facts and presumptions. It's consistent with what we can actually truly verify and in harmony with reality.

I don't want to get off topic here, but it deals with the nature of evolution and science in terms of believing and dismissing. The only example I can come up with (and I apologize) is the OJ Simpson frame-up by the Illuminati. Yes, OJ was set up and professionals carried out the killings and set up the fake evidence against OJ. But we would think, noting the ultimate goal was to have him executed for a crime he didn't commit that the easiest way to demonstrate that coup would be a videotape of the actual murders. Now lots of people are 100% convinced OJ did this, but not because of direct evidence but lack of evidence for any other suspects. That's the same thing with evolution and all this scientific stuff. It's in a vaccuum. Thus at one point if a tape actually surfaced showing who actually killed Ron and Nicole, then suddenly people would be force to change their minds about the evidence against OJ. Which, of course, would evaporate into thin air. But it only does that because it wasn't hard core evidence anyway. It was all quite "circumstantial" and quite fabricatable! If there really was absolute proof, then it would contradict the video tape and we'd call the tape a fake. But it wouldn't happen that way.

So likewise, while the evidence for evolution and science is quite convincing and emotional, if God just showed up and revealed himself to everybody, what would happen with that evidence? It would evaporate. We'd presume there was some explanation for everything that is simply hidden from the scientists right now, whom can't look past a certain theory anyway. Who knows what the atmosphere was like 80,000 years ago? Who knows what trace elements and gases were prevalent then than now? Suddenly, if God appeared to them, would come up with all kinds of excuses, scientific excuses to explain their findings. So don't have to dismiss or explain back to scientists in scientific terms we can't understand anyway, that whatever they are finding or doing has a scenario consistent with the Bible and the reality of God. And we can do that, right in front of them, and they can do nothing about it but say we're just closed-minded for not accepting their research presumptions for face value. Thus nothing really out there is that convincing to contradict anything the Bible says. You have to take the scentists' word and interpretation for everything. You can't really check it out for yourself very easily. That's why their arguments fail, except for those looking for as many excuses to deny God and the Bible as they can find.

JCanon

59

Flood of Gilgamesh written long before Noahs flood. Look at how simular!!

by Lady Liberty in

dear friends,.

lately i have been re-researching some things i learned as i was leaving the borg.

for lurkers and newbies, i thought i would share this with you.. apparently long before the flood of noah, was a story told and recorded on 12 clay tablets, of a flood so simular to noahs that it will be shocking to you if you have never read about it.

JCanon

JCanon,
Every time you push the submit button, you prove my point.
CCS

I know. I'm like a stumbling block. But I'm dealing directly with the inside reality, you are dealing with the smoke and mirrors. The things that the spiritual man sees and understands are like nonsense to the physical man. And if ever there was a counterpart to the "physical" man it would be the physical scientist, would it not? They are looking at physical things to understand the universe which has a spiritual component, thus some things will be left unanswered and will baffle him. Yet because they have no physical objective relaity for him, he will consider it to be "nonsense": Now don't get me wrong, yes, we have this "trump card" we pull on the scientists all the time: 14 But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man But the fact remains, if science that truly an absolute and clear-cut evidence of something, instead of it buried behind some sophisticated testing method or complex theorum, then people would have abandoned the Bible and God long time ago. Face it. To believe the scientists you have to have a measure of faith that they actually are honest and more importantly actually know what they are doing! So far, they haven't inspired much confidence on either issue. In the meantime, when something scientific does seem to support the Bible, like the RC14 dating for the fall of Rehov by Shishak c. 871BCE, they ignore it! So again, the JW-anointed perspective, is that this wave of false propaganda by Satan was prophesied that was designed to drown the woman, representing Christ's true followers. The only way she can't be drowned is by the earth which swallows up the waters. That is, her faith that the Bible is true is all the contradiction she needs to dismiss what is wrong and what is right. The details of what scientists will find out next week about what they are doing wrong today is not an issue for us. And since most of this is pursued to decide whether to believe if there is a God or not and we know frist hand there is one because we've either seen or talked with him or seen some modern miracle he has done via hol spirit, that's not our issue. It's the world's issue. But not hours. We have the direct confirmation of that. But we know others don't, not yet, so obviously we have to take the flak for being closed minded and having blind faith. Only it's not quite "blind" faith anymore, because we have evidence of God beyond the scriptures now. As a result, it just soaks up those waters completely. Those issues are of no concern for us. JCanon

59

Flood of Gilgamesh written long before Noahs flood. Look at how simular!!

by Lady Liberty in

dear friends,.

lately i have been re-researching some things i learned as i was leaving the borg.

for lurkers and newbies, i thought i would share this with you.. apparently long before the flood of noah, was a story told and recorded on 12 clay tablets, of a flood so simular to noahs that it will be shocking to you if you have never read about it.

JCanon

Anyway, this professor first discussed Gilgamesh and then moved on to the Bible. It's her opinion that we can't be sure which came first. She says that the oldest written Gilgamesh texts are older than the Hebrew writings but that the oral tradition may have started with the Hebrews first, and that the Sumerians were just the first to put it in writing. She made it clear, though, that she's just speculating on that idea.

She maybe can't be sure. But I'm sure.

JCanon

59

Flood of Gilgamesh written long before Noahs flood. Look at how simular!!

by Lady Liberty in

dear friends,.

lately i have been re-researching some things i learned as i was leaving the borg.

for lurkers and newbies, i thought i would share this with you.. apparently long before the flood of noah, was a story told and recorded on 12 clay tablets, of a flood so simular to noahs that it will be shocking to you if you have never read about it.

JCanon

Hi Steve:

Another big issue with the flood is the ark itself. According to the bibles own details, a structure of this size made in the way it is described would have collapsed under its own weight, excluding the inhabitants, and not including either the flood water raises and the movement that would have taken place. Most respected biblical scolars now state that the Flood is just a myth.
Steve

First, I'm likely the formost Biblical scholar in the world at this point. But besides that, your presumptions are based upon some details that you may not be aware of or that have not been stated. And ultimately who knows the special strength of what was used by them? Or ultimately God's own personal protection to fortify the ark. The ark was a symbol of salvation but never apart from God's own hand involved. So for the believer, there is no way out. I mean, you can't have a MIRACLE like the Flood occur, which is behind the MIRACLE of the ice canopy in the first place! So if the ark that God commanded Moses to build didn't happen to have been damaged in the flood then so be it. Maybe God made sure the waters around the ark were perfectly still. I mean, when you think about it. Maybe those 40 days of rain was a constant, even flow of water, which after you got afloat just meant higher and higher waters? Maybe it was a very controlled thing?

Frankly, it's like evolution. They can't explain "abiogenesis" and don't want to. They think they don't have to explain how life first got started in the first place. They only want to deal with how it evolved. But once they introduce God into the picture, how God could have started it, then there's no discussion any more as to whether there is a god or not, which is the whole question all are asking.

Likewise, if God can cause the miracle fo the Flood in the first place, then I think he can manage to make sure the ark he built withstood the flood experience he was about to bring about. Sure maybe the ark wouldn't have withstood a tidal wave that slamed it against a moutain! But maybe God didn't plan on having that as part of Noah's experience in the ark either. Noah and the animals needed to be in a clean, dry place. That was it. IF the ark had special protection during the flood, and why not? then so be it. So your assertions don't address the power of God.

I understand you argument. But it's mute when you consider divine intervention, right?

JCanon

59

Flood of Gilgamesh written long before Noahs flood. Look at how simular!!

by Lady Liberty in

dear friends,.

lately i have been re-researching some things i learned as i was leaving the borg.

for lurkers and newbies, i thought i would share this with you.. apparently long before the flood of noah, was a story told and recorded on 12 clay tablets, of a flood so simular to noahs that it will be shocking to you if you have never read about it.

JCanon

JCanon,
Do you actually believe the things you write? I find that your reasoning is so bogged down in the idea that there is no other way but yours, that I constantly dismiss what you have to say as coming from an unreasonable and unrealistic source. Your mind is so clouded with the judgement that you and you alone are correct that you "trip over dollars to pick up pennies". If someday you were to open your mind to the very slight possibility that someone else may have a point, you wouldn't worry so much and be so critical of those that disagree with your OPINION. Yes, J, it is called an opinion. Just because you say it, does not make it so.
CCS

I completely understand your position, and it's valid. But unavaoidable. However, on one single issue all things don't revolve. I accept that some things will appear to contradict the scriptures totally, but even the WTS is good at getting around a lot of it, amazingly good. But to be honest, for all the questions the Bible can't answer for the scientists, they avoid questions the Creationists ask as well, i.e. such as evolutionists on the abiogenesis issue. But in the overall analysis, it still boils down to the fact that for all I have to believe myself, it is not to be given to outsiders or even insiders who are not part of what I call the "banquet" class. Those on the inside of God's activities right now. There is a chasm between us and the world as far as what is really happening: " 26 And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and YOU people, so that those wanting to go over from here to YOU people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’ See? That means some will have more evidence than others and while we might want to share that, we are not permitted. It's like me. I claim I spoke with God. Good for me. But what does that do for you? If God appeared to you then you might take a second look at the Bible and what it says. Certainly. But if God is not planning to appear to you, and only to certain select ones, then of course, we can't blame them for being influenced by what might turn out to be later a false presumption. So as I was saying in another post, ultimately those who expect to get into the kingdom have to believe the Bible first, regardless; even if it seems to contradict something scientific. But it's not quite "blind faith" anymore, because God is more directly active and holy spirit is active as well, so that gives us on the inside that extra little confidence to doubt that the scientists really have anything or ever will, that actually will disprove the Bible as God's inspired. Now while that's a lot to bite off for someone who doesn't believe, those who do have trust to believe first, are given "more" in the way of miracles and holy spirit so as not to be distracted by all this Satanic propaganda. But ultimately, if the river of propaganda disgorged by Satan even threatens to drown the chosen ones, certainly, it would be quite effective at drowning those with less or little faith. Even the Bible says to build your house on the rock mass (the Bible) rather than the sand (The Watchtower) since when the storm comes, that house will collapse if it is not built on a firm foundation. But again, I can't blame anybody at one point of maximal saturation by this propaganda to buy into some of it and as well to be confused, since God himself is causing some of this confusion and blindness. So, of course, I have a "closed mind" to certain things, a valid observation. But I'm also not in the same position to be subjective as you are since I have more objective and direct proof that God is real. So the scientific questions Satan has drummed up is not going to change that, so it's of no interest. But that brings us to the true issue, does it not? A lot of this scentific stuff is really aimed at just bashing the Bible's history in the first place. That's where all these findings and debates end up. Reassuring people who don't want to believe the Bible in the first place that they have valid, scientific reasons not to. Not that 99% of all that is said by the scientists have some element of speculation to deal with. But it's all MOOT if you have a direct answer. I mean these are challenges to the Bible, to establish if say, there's a living God or not. If the Bible is true, maybe we'd have faith there is a God and what the Bible says, right? If science tends to challenge that, then our faith in God is shaken a bit. BUT... if you just saw God and finished talking to him, then that all changes! You may have a different set of questions at this point, but you're not looking to science to confirm there's really a god any more. You have direct evidence for the questions everybody else is asking about. So, in summary, the Day of the Lord is going to be a day of darkness and thick gloom. 16 Give to Jehovah YOUR God glory, before he causes darkness and before YOUR feet strike up against each other on the mountains at dusk. And YOU will certainly hope for the light, and he will actually make it deep shadow; he will turn [it] into thick gloom. Remember, the Flood came 7 days after Noah entered the Ark. The water canopy was actually solid ice. Over those seven days the ice was superheated and converted to water vapor. But the clouds would have been so dense and thick absolutely no sunlight would have reached the surface of the earth. So when it began to rain it was totally and completely dark. Same today, before that fear-inspiring day, the earth will be enveloped in darkness, meaning the minds of people will be dark. They won't be able to see before it strikes. So that is what we are seeing today. Lots and lots and lots of propaganda attacking the Bible and lots and lots of LOGICAL and SCIENTIFIC reasons not to believe the Bible. But it is a deception. So in effect, what God and Christ are dowing just before the destruction, is pushing everybody away from the fence and away from the middle ground. The forces at work will either push one totally against God and the Bible or will convert them totally to put full faith in the Bible, even if it means ignoring the science and research that would seem to contradict the Bible. It's a difficult choice, but we all know what the right choice is. So I validate your position. If God truly wanted everybody in the kingdom at this point, he would need only appear to them, right? Right. Well, since he is appearing to some than others, that sort of speaks for itself. Everyone is not invited. Just a select few. The rest are left with plenty of rope to hang themselves with as elaborate of a knot they need to make. JCanon

59

Flood of Gilgamesh written long before Noahs flood. Look at how simular!!

by Lady Liberty in

dear friends,.

lately i have been re-researching some things i learned as i was leaving the borg.

for lurkers and newbies, i thought i would share this with you.. apparently long before the flood of noah, was a story told and recorded on 12 clay tablets, of a flood so simular to noahs that it will be shocking to you if you have never read about it.

JCanon

NVRGNBK:
I wish the Lord God Almighty would help make this less confusing.
I guess He's too busy deciding what the JW literature campaign will be this winter.

You are kidding, right? God provided us the Bible to provide us with details of history and perspective. It's a book of truth from God. So he's not going to take kindly to scientists purposely looking for ways to contradict the Bible. NO. Instead he is going to trip them up in their own cunning. God likes playing games like that. So even if everything LOOKS like it is scientifically proven, like the ice core layers that date back 10,000 years or argon gas deposits used for dating, God can turn the tables on these scientists quite easily. He can hide anomalies from them that they can't see and they will make all the wrong assumptions and then be left with a contradiction and a choice: Believe the Bible or believe science. If they chose the scientifically wrong answer and reject the Bible, that seals their fate.

So it's more than just "This is what the scientists are saying this week!" It's also about trusting and putting faith in the Bible. Everybody knows yesterday's science books are already outdated. Science is moving so fast that by the time some books get printed they already need updating with the latest information.

So God purposely puts people in the dark and purposely confuses them! Christ too:

13 This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; 14 and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see.

For those who have much, more will be given. But for those who have nothing, even that will be taken away from them. Meaning? Meaning if there is nothing there for someone to say believe in God or find the Bible to be true, God doesn't leave that person alone with their doubts. Instead, he thows them into darkness and places stumbling blocks in front of them so that they end up believing in something completely different. They become more convinced than ever in their own ignorance about the truth. I have this little saying that once you reject God's word, he throws you into darkness, leads you to a high cliff and then Jesus comes from behind and pushes you over the edge. Something like that. THAT's how it really is.

Christ and his father are dead set on keeping certain "undesireables" out of the kingdom. Now they have to keep it "legal" but, baby, do they ever bend those laws!

So ultimately, when it finally does come down to something that perhaps we as Christian believers can't explain that the scientists are presenting, especially when it relates to the ages of things or man or the earth being a billion years old or something, we have to just step back and grin, knowing Jehovah has fooled them with some rare phenomenon that is giving them completely erroneous dates. But God knows, 9 times out of 10, they were looking for an excuse not to believe in God. That was their motive all along. So for those looking for errors and mistakes, even the WTS says that Jehovah will provide them with enough of those errors. In other words, enough rope for them to hang themselves.

People are not paying attention. The Bible records times when God comes through and kills everybody, wipes out entire cities, man woman and child. You don't want to get into that situation where you're on the wrong side of God's anger. He does not take kindly to those who choose to follow Satan or insist upon being deceived by his ministers of darkness, whom they believe are ministers of light.

So no. Absolutely not. Those turned in the wrong direction in the first place will be led even farther in that direction. Those turned in the right direction will see more and more light and get the answers they need and find the validation of their faith in the Bible.

JCanon

59

Flood of Gilgamesh written long before Noahs flood. Look at how simular!!

by Lady Liberty in

dear friends,.

lately i have been re-researching some things i learned as i was leaving the borg.

for lurkers and newbies, i thought i would share this with you.. apparently long before the flood of noah, was a story told and recorded on 12 clay tablets, of a flood so simular to noahs that it will be shocking to you if you have never read about it.

JCanon

SINIS, from your ref at talkorigins:

Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series? Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers. [Johnsen et al, 1992,; Alley et al, 1993] A worldwide flood would be expected to leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and probably other evidence. Why doesn't such evidence show up?
How are the polar ice caps even possible? Such a mass of water as the Flood would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds and break them up. They wouldn't regrow quickly. In fact, the Greenland ice cap would not regrow under modern (last 10 ky) climatic conditions.

Both of the above presumes there was ice at the poles before the Flood which is contradictory of the Bible's account which says there was no rain before the flood and thus no means of great ice forming from any snows. Instead, under the ICE canopy, there was a greenhouse effect world wide. Thus you find animals like the mammoth and tropical vegetation underneath all these ice cores. Plus, they are making the assumption that each layer amounts to a year, but are they sure? How do they know what was going on earlier or just after the Flood when these ice cores formed? Things may have been the same then as now. But the strongest testament is the vegetation layer under all this ice.

So you can always come up with tons of QUESTIONS the scientists can't explain, because for one, they are not following the Bible specifically nor understand the specifics of the flood, and also they make presumptions that they cannot confirm either. The Bible's timeline would disallow the 10,000 age of the glaciers, which they are only dating counting layers, which they think is annual, but could be storm layers, many occurring in a single year.

At any rate, in the end there are those who will simply have to simply rely upon the BIBLE itself to swallow up anti-Bible propaganda like this designed by Satan to drown the faithful of Christ:

Rev 12: 15 And the serpent disgorged water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon disgorged from its mouth.

Satan is the master of knowledge and propaganda, especially on issues that can't be double-checked or that are based on theories by scientists that few people clearly understand. Thus the "earth" represents the Bible here. The woman is not drowned by this river of pseudo-scientific anti-Biblical propaganda, because the Bible comes to their rescue. That means a clear understanding of the Bible's timeline and what it teaches regarding certain details such as the global flood.

So the anointed and those fundamentalists who are going to believe the Bible regardless, have no problem when they perceive a direct conflict to simply dismiss it as inconclusive until it is proven wrong scientifically by some later discovery. In the meantime, we are not distracted by this talk. The propaganda, though, will certainly drown those who do not have the advantage of having absolute faith in the Bible. Even so, arguments like the above are inapplicable to the Bible's Flood situation, so a lot of these arguments that get the momentum going are just glossovers. There may be a few critical things that just seem to contradict the Bible and can't be explained, but they are few and far between in my opinion, and in those cases, it's just an issue of trusting the Bible and waiting to see what REALLY occurred.

Keep in mind too, that Jehovah likes playing games with the wise of the earth. For instance, one method of radiometric dating has been argon gas. But if there is an unnatural high concentration of that gas from another source, then it drastically exaggerates the age of certain things. Thus a lava flow in Hawaii that is known to have been only about 50 years old was giving dates of over a million years when tested radiometrically. So everything science does is not full proof:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/3846/1132

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n315044734841448/

JCanon

5

For those doing Research: Chart of Seventy Years For Babylon

by Lady Liberty in

609- nabopolassars 17th reignal year.

607- nabopolassars 19th reignal year.

605- nabopolassars 21st reignal year.

JCanon

This is correct. There is no conflict between archeology and the Bible, unlike the Societys claims. The only conflict comes when you try to alter the date like the Society has done in order to support their teaching about 1914. When I presented this very list to the Elders, they looked as if I smacked them upside the head with a lead brick! I have them on tape saying that "there IS no proof for 607". I knew there wasn't, but it was shocking for me to hear them say this because they apparentley know this and still teach it.

Thanks for posting this, BUT, the problem is not with documentation of the NB chronology records or that someone can come up with an explanation of the 70 years to fit any number of scenarios. The problem is with JOSEPHUS, the Jewish historian and what the claims the 70 years is as fulfilled by Jeremiah and whether or not that version of the 70 years is compatible with the Biblical interpretation. I'm not presenting this as an argument but simply that the above version contradicts JEWISH HISTORY. That is pertinent since the issue of the 70 years comes from the Bible and the Jews in the first place, so since we do have a Jewish historian commenting on this, who also would have had secular records of this history as well as the oral tradition in this regard, it becomes pertinent to see just what that is about. The above suggests that there is no official or Jewish historical reference as to when the 70 years occurred and so someone has brilliantly figured it out in the absence of any historical reference. But there IS already a set secular reference for when these 70 years takes place. So you have a conflict between Jewish history and Bablonian history, quite apart from the Bible. Here's the reference: Josephus, Antiquities 11.1.1

IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus 1 which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon , God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitudeseventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity. And these things God did afford them; for he stirred up the mind of Cyrus , and made him write this throughout all Asia : "Thus saith Cyrus the king: Since God Almighty hath appointed me to be king of the habitable earth, I believe that he is that God which the nation of the Israelites worship; for indeed he foretold my name by the prophets, and that I should build him a house at Jerusalem , in the country of Judea."

Please note these key points, for those who can't follow this:

1. This is the first year of Cyrus which is the seventieth from the day "that our people were removed out of their own land." That is not reference to the first deportation, but the last. The people were not completely removed out of their own land until the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar, the year of the last deportation (Jer. 52:30): " 30 In the twenty-third year of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar, Neb·u´zar·ad´an the chief of the bodyguard took Jews into exile, seven hundred and forty-five souls."

2. These seventy years are specifically considered to be the ones prophesied by Jeremiah.

3. Note that he specifically is dealing with "servitude"; not desolation of the land. He also mentions the "poor people" who would be serving this servitude and the "poor people" is a reference back to those poor people who were left behind in the land after the fall of Jerusalem, clearly showing who is in reference here.

So the seventy years and when they occurred is not a historical mystery. Why was there a need to rework it?

So anyone who comes up with any chronology for any 70 years other than this, is contradicting Josephus' own take on the Jeremiah prophecy about the 70 years.

QUESTION/COMMENT: At this point, our interest would be whic chronologies agree with or disagree with this historical reference for the 70 years. Those specifically would be the WTS, the secular historians as above, perhaps Olof Jonsson, and most importantly coordination with the Bible. I have all those specific analyses. But I'd just like to ask you, now that you are aware of Josephus' own history about the 70 years, what is your impression?

1. Did you know this reference existed?

2. Do you realize that it is not the same 70 years as presented by the above reference from the British Museum?

3. Do you think this reference affects the 70-year interpretation presented from 609-539 BCE?

I'd just like to know your response first to the above three questions specifically, before adding anything further.

Thanks, so much! And again, this is one of my favorite topics!

JCanon

49

Race! Why is it important?

by Justahuman24 in

jw
friends

well, this is just going to be about some misunderstandings, i guess..

why is it that most "americans" or people in the u.s. consider "hispanics/latinos" and spaniards to be the same?

spaniards are caucasian.

JCanon

Interesting topic, but I think you hit the nail right on the head. People have to be what they are perceived to be whether that is precisely right or not.

And it's painful sometimes. I know that, being Black, it might sound strange me saying this, but in one congregation where I went, there was this very nice couple where the wife was white and the father was Japanese. Japanese can be fair skinned. The children looked generally white but with a little oriental flare. But I know they were not going to be accepted as "white" in their world. They would be treated as Asian.

The other thing which fascinates me, is the Jewish issue. To me, again, being Black, I can't really tell the difference between a Jew (like Barbra Streisand or Steven Spielberg or even Whoopi Goldberg!!! --kidding!) and a white person. But it seems to be something the white world keeps track of for some reason.

But having noted that, it's equally fascinating that all these racial issues so much so revolves around if you're "white" or not. But as much of it might be because of intentional cultural manipulation to make sure whites always come out ahead, that being based on Aristotleism, there is the genetic issue. And that is, if you were to break down everything into two very general groups with regard to skin color, the two groups would be WHITE and NON-WHITE. Whites carry the recessive genes of the human family. That's why a white man can only have a white child with a white woman. When any white person mixes with a "person of colour" then the more dominant genes take over and that person is thus considered "non-white" even if they are considered mixed, or a member of the non-white parent's race.

Look at the mixed celebrities we have that are half white, like the sons of Diana Ross or Halle Berry who is half Jewish, or Diana's daughter Tracy Ellis Ross who is half Jewish. They all are considered "black" even though only half their genes come from a black mother.

Things are a lot better now, of course, as far as labels and superiority issues. But the solution to all that is simply to LOVE EVERYBODY for who they are. And sometimes that isn't about loving the Mexicans or the Puerto Ricans or the Koreans, but looking past all the hurtful history of the Nazis and the whites in the South of the U.S. and all those cultural messages and learning to appreciate and like white people as God's children as well, with their own special beauty and gifts. Then it doesn't really matter. A person's skin is simply their personal decoration and not much more.

As someone else said, though, we are ALL mixed and no one is pure. Perhaps. But Eve was white and Adam was Black. Abel was a shepherd and Cain was a farmer...if you get my drift. So the competition has been going on for a long time. The Bible says that both Jehovah's and Jesus' hair is "wooly," if you get my drift. Satan is said to be the most beautiful angel in all of heaven...if you get my drift.

Anyway, I'm glad things are better today, it seems than before, even though it hasn't been that many years since the Holocaust, amazingly!!!

JCanon