Posts by JCanon

Just for the record, there would be a double fulfillment of the 1335 days with respect to the removal of the "constant feature" in relation to the messiah. That is because the notification of the GB of JWs that they were the "evil slave" ended a period of 1290 days that led to the fulfillment of the 1335 days fulfilled by the appearance of the messiah.

Interestingly, November 10, 1992 was a full moon and 44 days later a new moon occurs on December 23, 1992, the day then President of the WTS, Fred Franz dies. The messiah appeared between the 24th-26th. So for those who knew that there was a 1335 days prophecy fulfillment in line with the specific appearance of the messiah (others not acknowledging this can ignore this!), would want to understand some issue of fulfillment as far as the "removal of the constant feature" in regard to the messiah. The period we are looking at is the spring of 1989. The messiah had been unjustly disfellowshipped earlier by a committee who misunderstood some of the details of the case. The disfellowshipping was challenged and a less biased committee was requested but that request was ignored. The messiah then simply let a year expire, attending all the meetings, etc. in order to get reinstated, sometime early in 1989. But after being reinstated he found it far to painful to attend the meetings so stopped attending and simply became an inactive witness and a non-presence in the congregation. This would fulfill the "removal of the constant feature" 1290 days prior to the identification of the GB as the "evil slave" which was done via a letter written by one of the anointed to the WTS explaining this. This fulfills Bible prophecy that the "man of lawlessness" must be exposed and identified before the messiah arrives. But turns out when the MOL is revealed, it is 45 days before the messiah appears, to fulfill 1335 days.

So there are two fulfillments of the "1335 days". For the Jews, the "day for a year" applies, for Christians literal days are applied.

Interestingly, even though the "constant feature" was removed from the WTS when the messiah stopped attending meetings, there is an implied fulfillment for this same "time, time and half time" of apostasy by the WTS in relation to the "temple in its right condition". That is, the last 110 days leading up to November 10, 1992 should have had some fulfillment of the temple in its right condition. It was around 110 days prior to this that the messiah became one of the anointed and had begun attending meetings and again and was an active witness. So that's likely that fulfillment.

So it's amazing when you start identifying certain applications that you see the pattern of fulfillments over and over in regard to the messiah, the Jews and JWs. But some of these fulfillments will obviously only be significant to those in the kingdom. It will mean little to outsiders. That is not to say, however, that outsiders are excluded from joining the messiah's kingdom later. Remember, when the prodigal son is given a banquet, the older brother refuses to go in and be a part of it. He doesn't understand God's choice to make the prodigal son the messiah. So his Father comes out and reassures him that "what is mine is yours" indicating he is not rejected from the kingdom, but he is still not part of the private banquet either. Thus some will understand more detailed things about the kingdom if they are part of the wedding feast, whereas others not directly part of the wedding feast will not understand or like certain fulfillments.

It's all quite fascinating when you're seeing all the inside details.

P.S. Since likely there can be no true context for this otherwise, when the Bible talks about "those who pierced him" seeing him, it is in reference to the messiah being unjustly disfellowshipped and thus pierced. However, some involved in this "piercing" obviously would be called on it once they find out who the messiah really is, namely, the brother they unjustly disfellowshipped, so in that close proximity to the messiah, some of those elders become JIOR, namely, three of them. Don't worry, the congregation records have long ago disappeared for some reason, so this likely can't be traced. When you move from congregation to congregation, your records are sent to the new congregation. Somewhere between transfers these records got lost. Again, this is just a note for those very much on the inside who are crossing the t's and dotting the eyes on all these prophecies and wondered how this could be fulfilled.

The Dome of the Rock is my first choice for the "disgusting thing" set in place to start the 1290 days ending in 1947.

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As Wikipaedia states, however, " It was built between 687 and 691 by the 9 th Caliph, Abd al-Malik, making it the oldest extant Islamic building in the world."

687 AD is not 1290 years from 1947, but it is 1260 years from 1947! (1947 - 1260 = 687). That's too much of an obvious "disgusting thing", a phallic symbol over the temple mount to ignore as part of this fulfillment since it matches an alternative period of "time, time and half time". That is 3.5 years or half a week alternatively is assigned to 1260 or 1290 days, depending. The timing is symbolic and rounded against solar years. 3.5 solar years is 1278 days, which is shorter than 1290 but longer than 1260.

That is not to say, however, there is not also a fulfillment in 657 AD. There was for instance, a definitive change in the rabbinical system ending in 657, which began a new one. Thus it might be interesting to note why this might have violated something holy, with regard to the Saboraim vs the Gaonim methods.

This is a somewhat complex reference, but if you note the context of Matthew we can specifically identify the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" by whatever forces would desolate the Jews, the "holy ones" during the last days. Remember, this "disgusting thing standing in a holy place" would desolate the holy ones.

Therefore, the "disgusting thing that causes desolation", meaning that causes the "great tribulation" is the German army in WWII when it surrounded the central place in exile of the "holy ones" (the Jews) in late 1939, Warsaw Poland. So both the "disgusting thing causing desolation" and "God of Magog" are the same entity. In addition, this great tribulation is specifically to occur during a 7-year period after 62 weeks. 62 weeks is 434 years. That means after 434 years into the 70 weeks associated with the second coming. The first-coming 70 weeks end in 36 CE and begin in 455BCE. Thus when we count down the 490-year periods down to our day, which is 4, the 70 weeks ends in 1996 and begins in 1506. 434 years into these 70 weeks begins in 1940. One week would end in 1947. It is only after this "great tribulation" that the Jews would be restored. Thus the reference to the 1335 days mentioned links the second coming with a period shortly after the great tribulation. The Jewish "tribulation" ended when they finally had their own homeland again, which was 1947.

Therefore, we can use 1947 to end the 1290 days, which represents 1290 years. If, indeed, 1947 ends the 1290 days then we need only go back in time to see what kinds of things were happening that would fulfill the "digusting thing" in the holy place back in 657 AD. The only thing of significance I discovered around 657 was the establishment of the official rabbinical system. This might fulfill this. 657 AD is in the middle of the Moslem takeover of the Promised Land, perhaps that is the general reference as well, a foreign god ruling in the Promised Land.

But of keener interest is the Mosque, which is just a huge phallic symbol being built around 687 AD. The mosque, clearly a disgusting thing in a holy place was thus built at another interpretation of "time, times and half time" that is 1260 days. So the Bible might be making the option of calculating in this case 1290 days into a period of 1260 days and referencing the pagan Dome of the Rock as the disgusting thing in a holy place that gets placed 1290 days, or "time, times and half time" prior to the end of the 1290 days. But it doesn't matter since we don't need to determine when the 1290 or 1260 days event begins because the event ending the 1290 days is 1947. The 1335 days, 45 years later, which marks the year of the second coming is confirmed by the 70th week. That is, you have 70 weeks from 1506 to 1996, so the 70th week of the second coming is from 1989-1996 with the messiah first reappearing just before the mid-70th-week passover. This is the benefit of chronology. It helps us narrow down and confirm fulfillment. And that is why those who ignore chronology end up thinking sometimes that a fulfillment that seems to work generally for them isn't correct, something they could have determined if they tried to coordinate the chronology. So, at this point we can confirm if 1947 is truly the end of the 1290 days because it should date the second coming to within a year of of the mid-70th-week Passover, which occurred on April 6, 1993. 45 years plus 1947 gives us 1992, the same dating.

That's my interpretation of all this.

THE BIBLICAL HISTORY OF WOMEN IN CHARGE: Not pretty.

Again, I'd like to suggest here that the "baggage" of women in the culture, particularly Jewish culture is a factor in this decision. Keep in mind that this is not about qualification. A male who might be quite capable of leadership in the congregation are excluded, for instance, if their personal home life is not in order, i.e. their children are unruly. Also they must have a good reputation in the community. So if say someone who was a former criminal or was disrespected in the community became Christian and though quite capable otherwise to be an elder, he would not be chosen. Thus "image" was important for the perception of leadership. But in that regard, women don't have a good score card for being particularly great in leadership roles. Consider the historical baggage involved when women try to be in charge:

1. EVE. Ooops! Things are starting off downhill. This woman was cursed and made to be even more dependent upon her husband, her birth pangs increased and her sexual urge for men. She was "thoroughly" deceived which transfers to the nature of women in general as being ones that perhaps are not as smart as men when it comes to judgment calls. That is the "baggage" they have. It continues today in our culture in some ways as well. I apologize for being offensive to anyway, but it's part of the "baggage" when comparing men and women. For instance, there are lots of "dumb blonde jokes" out there and even movies playing off that theme like "Legally Blond", and "Legally Blond 2." As a result, women are constantly fighting this negative stereotype. But that's not the point, the fact that the stereotype exists and persists affects effectiveness as a leader, beyond simply being smarter than the men around her. Now all women don't fall into this category, but they end up fighting against this stereotype anyway. That is, given the Garden of Eden, Eve was more Marilyn Monroe than Condoleezza Rice.

2. MIRIAM. Here is a case where a woman actually oppossed her brother, Moses, who was the established leader. She was stricken with leaprosy for doing so. I'm sure she had lots of frustration with Moses as many women do with male leadership, that certainly leaves things to be desired and consistently so; however, it wasn't her place to take over. She was truly a bright and respected and well-loved woman, but the message was clear. This is a central example in Jewish culture where a woman in charge didn't turn out well.

3. SAMSON AND DELIAH. Beautiful woman betrays God's own prophet and judge. Very important lesson. Many times women distract men and manipulate them with their femininity. This also goes back to Eden. In the meantime, this sexual attraction for beautiful women and the disastrous results was a continuing problem.

4. SOLOMON AND ALL HIS FOREIGN WIVES. Again, the issue with the foreign wives and how women influenced the men who fell in love with them is historic here. It was always a problem, so much so it was blamed ultimately for why the Jews were finally sent into exile. Thus when they returned from exile one of the things they swore to was not to marry the foreign women.

5. RITUAL TEMPLE PROSTITUTES. Again, the attraction of men to beautiful women often led Israel astray as Satan used women as prostitutes to get converts away from YHWH. Not to be ignored.

6. JEZEBEL. Classic example of domineering and influencial foreign wife wreaking havoc.

7. ATHALIAH. Kills all the royal family and takes over as queen. So the two examples of when women were prominent rulers and queens in either Judah or Israel (she and Jezebel) have the worst of reputations.

8. POTIPHAR'S WIFE: I wasn't going to include this, but now I believe I should. Here a woman married to a "eunuch" was oversexed and wanted Joseph. That's understandable because being married to a eunuch, obviously her sexual frustration was understood. Still Joseph was a handsome man and a woman is involved with having him sent to prison for something he didn't do.

8a. DAVID AND BATHSHEEBA. David kills an innocent man so he can cover up a pregnancy of a beautiful women he fell in love with who just happens to have been bathing naked below the king's window. Did she PLAN this?

9. JEWISH WOMEN SPECIFICALLY BLAMED FOR HOLOCAUST, INFANTACIDE. The Holocaust mimics the paganism practiced by the Jews where the Jewish female prostitutes seduced men and then ended up killing their babies. They would burn the children alive in pottery kilns that were located on the roofs. It was so bad that Jerusalem was called "the city of bloodshed." In retribution, God would send the Jews into exile and send a sword after them that would culminate in a "great tribulation" that had never occurred in the world before nor would occur again. It would be a time when women would suffer the most because instead because her own children would be mercilessly killed and burned alive like the feamale prostitutes had done in ancient times. Thus the Book of Lamentation was written in advance to lament the future experience of the Holocaust in modern times, and it blames the women:

6 The [punishment for the] error of the daughter of my people also becomes greater than the [punishment for the] sin of Sod´om,
Which was overthrown as in a moment, and to which no hands turned [helpfully].
7 Our forefathers are the ones that have sinned. They are no more. As for us, it is their errors that we have had to bear.
8 Mere servants have ruled over us. There is no one tearing us away from their hand.

WOMEN WORSHIPPING "QUEEN OF HEAVENS". Also when the Jews ran down to Egypt after Gedliah was killed and Jeremiah tried to get them to return, a key refusal came from the women who liked their favorite goddess "The Queen of Heaven" more. So another example of where Jewish women taking charge was against YHWH.

15 And all the men who were knowing that their wives had been making sacrificial smoke to other gods, and all the wives who were standing as a great congregation, and all the people who were dwelling in the land of Egypt, in Path´ros, proceeded to answer Jeremiah, saying: 16 “As regards the word that you have spoken to us in the name of Jehovah, we are not listening to you; 17 but we shall positively do every word that has gone forth from our mouth, in order to make sacrificial smoke to the ‘queen of the heavens’ and to pour out to her drink offerings, just as we ourselves and our forefathers, our kings and our princes did in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, when we used to be satisfied with bread and to be well off, and we did not see any calamity at all. 18 And from the time that we ceased to make sacrificial smoke to the ‘queen of the heavens’ and pour out drink offerings to her we have lacked everything, and by the sword and by the famine we have come to our finish.
19 “Also, when we were making sacrificial smoke to the ‘queen of the heavens’ and [were disposed] to pour out drink offerings to her, did we without asking our husbands make for her sacrificial cakes, in order to make an image of her, and to pour out drink offerings to her?”

IN SUMMARY: So, there is a lot of "baggage" here not just for Jewish women but for men-women interaction involving worship and the potential negative influence women have had when they take leadership roles beside men. Unfortunately, the bad women give all women a bad reputation which the many good women end up having to live down. But for the sake of ORDER and functionality in the congregation, it seems all these complications would not need to be sorted out on a woman-by-woman basis if all were excluded from speaking in the congregation. The "battle of the sexes" would thus not be played out as a sidebar in the Christian congregation. Men alone would be left in charge to make a mess of things on their own (ooops, I mean... um), that is, men alone would work out their own issues between themselves without the added potential complications of a long history of missteps with women. If women said nothing in the congregation then those issues don't come up.

THE ESOTERIC SATAN PARALLEL TO JEHOVAH DEALING WITH SATAN, INCIDENTALLY: Incidentally, not allowing women to speak might reflect some prejudice against Satan. That is, Satan was one of the two covering cherubs that appear over the Ark of the Covenant. The other angel represented Christ/Michael the archangel. Satan rebelled, of course. But in this special connection with Jesus on Holy Mount Zion, Satan was considered the "woman" or wife of Christ. The position on Mount Zion as the wife of Christ is going to be replaced by Christ's new Bride, the anointed saints. Thus Satan and her rebellion is referred to as the "woman and her seed" at Genesis 3:15. Thus Satan herself, particularly in Jewish culture in connection with the tradition of LILITH is also considered a rebellious woman.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Topics/Lilith/aNePics.html

So the Jews thought Satan was a woman, essentially, and the Christians understood that Christ's original wife, Satan, had rebelled against him, thus on some level the competition even between Christ and Satan was a "battle of the sexes." Satan was known as the "resister" and one of great wisdom, but an agitator. Satan had a lot of "issues" to bring before YHWH but in the end, the sacrifice of Christ silenced those arguments, thus Satan has no voice. This was done by the faithful angels volunteering to die and by experiencing death, allowed God to also put Satan to death without a having to legally try his case. That is, basically, God decided to kill all the angels to get rid of Satan. That was the easy, simple way to do it without all the legal entanglements. If God killed all the angels then he wouldn't have to explain why he was killing Satan and his rebels. He would not have to go through any legal issues regarding the death penalty. Of course, it was a trick since God promised the angels who volunteered to be "passed through the fire" that he would bring them back to life again through resurrection. Satan would not get any such resurrection. So it turns out that the penalty of DEATH isn't that muc of a penalty unless it's permanent! But what this also afforded was SILENCE. The great "Queen of the Heavens", Satan herself, the beautiful ex-wife of Christ, could say nothing. This woman was silenced in the end, ultimately. Thus there was a high-level spiritual precedent here for banning women from speaking in the congregation that goes all the way up to the Heavens involving Satan herself. But again, what is pertinent here for Jewish culture, is that the Jews understood Satan was a women, ultimately.

So as I said, from the beginning women got on the wrong foot on the wrong side of the bed and it seems to have gone downhill from there, and they are still paying for it. It's unfortunate, but there is comfort in the fact that one day all will be equal and sexism good or bad will not exist. Clearly though, a lot of potential issues as far as the peace in the congregation would be avoided if women were excluded from speaking. Maybe it was a MIRIAM PHOBIA reflex. ??

Interesting also is that Jesus ends up being a "eunuch" at both the first and second coming, also avoids that issue. That is, for all the potential challenge and temptation a beautiful woman could cause, whether with Samson, David or Solomon, or Adam... she has zero influence on someone gay. It's as if she doesn't have a voice at all. All the power of a woman that she might use through her femininity and the weakness of men, which is very much seated in beauty, is zero if the man is gay. I don't think that can be ignored when it comes to the Christ. It is as if God decided not to even go there and make this an issue. Christ would not have to deal with the man-woman competition issue when he appears in human form as a "eunuch" (gay). It's as if God wasn't taking any chances the second time around, having learned from Adam, Samson, David and Solomon and to some extent even Ahab via Jezebel. Satan's chief tool for ruining men, therefore, through women, doesn't even get plugged in. It doesn't even get taken out of the box. It's subtle, but it's another sort of blanket indictment against women. I wonder if that is why being a "eunuch" (gay) is considered a "gift." A gift in the way of effecting singleness since one would not be induced to marry, not being fulfilled in that situation as would a straight man, but also it eliminates totally the ifluence of beautiful women and beautiful female prostitutes. Thus the temptation of the average straight man in this regard was a non-temptation for the eunuch, so that was sort of like a gift. He could focus on spiritual things 100% without being divided or feeling competition from women.

So on a high esoteric level, I think even Jehovah himself sends out a subtle but profound "snub" to women when it comes to male vs female interaction. Satan lines up all the pretty prostitutes and foreign wives to get the Israelites to break God's covenant, and God makes some of them gay. Of course, they have to deal with homosexual issues, but none of Satan's female temple prostitutes are going to be an issue. It's as if they are invisible, silenced, without a voice, as Satan has none in heaven.

Joseph,

I agree with you!

JCanon,
I do not have the time this morning for such a long article. But the thing that is common between the human and non-human Christ is His life. So when God restored this life once again Jesus could use it to raise His body and continue to use it for some 40 more days. He had the ability to conceal himself from others and this was covered in the article. This does not mean that it took another body to do that.

Here I agree/concede. Precisely how Jesus reappeared in his body is a technicality not revealed or apparent.

Did it take another body to walk on water?

No. But he did look like the "gardener" either and it was the same body. Jesus didn't just disappear in front of people or reappear behind locked doors. So yes Jesus did miracles but he was not an angel. There is a difference, or at least I would make note of this difference here. that Jesus did after the resurrection was distinct from things he did before.

On the immortality of the human Christ. I gave the scriptural reference for such immortality of the human nature. Now this does not indicate how we will look when we get such immortality. That is what you seem perplexed about but you are not discussing the same thing.

I am not perplexed over this at all. 1 Corinithians talks about the "ressurrection". It quite plainly says the resurrection is like a seed that is sown into a physical body then raised in a spiritual one. It is sown in "corruption" and raised in "incorruption." It plainly says " 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual." See that? FIRST is the physical, and THEN is the spiritual. Two phases to the resurrection. Only associated with the physical are some non-immortal things, like "weakness", "corruption." So that is the basis for considering as context for other scriptures that the first phase of the resurrection is back into an imperfect body. What do you think it is "SOWN INTO A PHYSICAL BODY" means? I'm interpreting that as the implanting of resurrected ones into the bodies of modern individuals as a possibility. In the meantime, neither you nor the WTS can explain how it is or when it is that the resurrection takes place in such a way that ALL together are changed as 1 Thess 4:15-18 explains. That's right. No one gets changed from incorruption to incorruption head of the others. All get their prize together.

15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

Note that the dead rise FIRST and then "together" with those already alive are changed and "caught away in the clouds". See that? TWO PHASES. Two phases. This thus reflects the same two phases of 1 Corinthians. First the physical, then the spiritual. When you understand it that way, and we understand the 1st resurrection involves the implanting into imperfect physical bodies, then it is indeed possible for all the anointed to get their heavenly prizes together. That's because when the dead are first raised back into physical bodies, all are in the same state for a period of time before they are then converted to spiritual form. This period of time, though, is over 1000 years!

Thus you nor JWs explain how it is that those alive on the earth can become immortal at the same time as those who are alive when Christ arrives.

You also have the issue of the timing here. It says that Christ is in heaven when this major resurrection of the dead occurs. He is in heaven as Michael the archangel and descends and raises the dead. He uses an archangel's voice meaning he is in the form of an archangel. We know from Revelation that the 1st resurrection occurs before the millennium begins. These are on hand to be king-priests at the millennium. At the same time, we know that Christ himself reappears in the flesh. So combining this information, we presume that the 1st resurrection occurs prior to Christ taking up human form again, and therefore prior to the second coming. Now I know you don't like chronology and I can see why, because even the "7 times" prophecy with three dates potentially for the fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, 587BCE or 529BCE all represent past dates, i.e. 1914, 1934 and 1992, respectively. So if the Bible is true, where are these resurrected people waiting to start ruling as king-priests? See, Joseph. The chronology in the Bible contradicts your view, so you just ignore it. It's too "confusing" and confounding for you, you claim. Of course, it would be if you have the wrong interpretation.

But the chronology works out just fine if you just accept what the Bible says. Basically, before the second coming and Christ takes up a human body himself, while still Michael the archangel, he causes the 1st phase of the resurrection to take place by raising the dead which involves "sowing" them like seeds into physical bodies first, these are the physical bodies of modern living individuals who are still in "weakness". They are not spiritual yet. They join those "in Christ" who are still alive at this time. Thus all "in Christ" at this time are back in physical, imperfect bodies. Then Christ himself returns to the flesh and they see him because he also is in a physical body just like theirs at this time. They remain in the physical body all through the millennium, through Satan's release and destruction, and then during Judgment Day. At the point when death is destroyed, which is after the last person has been judged. When that occurs, and all the judging is done, then the second phase occurs where all in Christ receive their spiritual bodies. Neither you nor the WTS, therefore, are following scripture.

On all this numbers thing, I do not bother with it. Hardly anything else is understood correctly so why bother with such speculation. Just grasping what it takes to be a Christian in the Kingdom and why takes all my time.
Joseph

I understand it and the Bible says in the end times, these sacred secrets and hidden things would be understood by some:

Daniel 12: 3 “And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.
4 “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”

12 “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days! Are you "keeping in expectation", Joseph, as the Bible instructs? Now every detail of the chronology would not be revealed all at once. The Bible does say that all ten virgins "nod" and their lamps go low. The Bible does say that "immediately after the tribulation of those days" there would be a period of spiritual darkness among the primary body of God's people, only the "eagles" would see Christ when he first arrives. So precise understanding of chronology would not be known when Christ arrives and immediately after the "great tribulation" of Matthew, which was the Holocaust, with both Jews and JWs as targets of "Gog of Magog." But the fundamentals among God's people would be understood. They understood long ago that the "1335 days" pointed to the second coming; that's how they came up with 1874. Tha date is incorrect for that event, but the concept is understood. Same with the "7 times" prophecy, they understand the chronology represents 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem until the second coming. They get 1914 because they have the wrong date for the fall of Jerusalem, but the concept is clearly understood. Same with the "70 weeks". It is clear that the messiah must fulfill the 70th week and since he was baptized in 29 CE, even JWs come up with the correct date of 455 BCE to begin these 70 weeks. Now when Christ arrives, the five wise virgins are able to use their extra oil to sort all of this out. The foolish virgins do not have enough oil to do this. They foolish virgins are the ones who don't like chronology or don't bother with it. So even if they have insight into a lot of things in scripture, there are still inaccuracies in understanding without the correct chronology. So you see, Joseph, you automatically lose your own argument since the chronology contradicts your view and you refuse to deal with the chronology, claiming it is too confusing. Maybe it is for YOU. But not for those who take and interest in understanding it, rather than your position of thumbing your nose up at something in the scripture. And that's why you can't see, because you're in darkness for rejecting what God has given us to understand these things. What amazes me, is that even though you yourself don't understand chronology, you think that no one else does either. And even though you clearly admit you don't understand it and thus avoid it, you think others should do the same. Don't you know tha different persons are given different understanding of things, and maybe it was not your position to develop chronology but to learn it from others who are given that light? But instead of seeking out "those with insight" you presume since God hasn't given you light in that area that nobody else has that light either. Not smart. The result is I'm HAPPY as Daniel 12 says, because I know precisely then the "1335 days" ends. Chronology is part of the whole picture of my understanding of scripture. JC

Heathen or JCanon,
Where in the Bioble does it teach that Jesus rose from the dead as a spirit being? THe verse where Jesus is hanging on the cross is only proof that Jesus committed His Spirit to His Father. This is not the resurrection.
Also for Jesus to materialize flesh and bones and say he rose from the dead in a body when it wasn't the case wouldn't he be lying?
Next when Jesus said, "Destroy this temple..." What does temple stand for? Read context please. Its his physical body. And what does he then raise up? In His own power? His physical tangeble body.
Lets talk about John 2:19.
Robin

Good questions. But here's what I focus on in my belief that he was a spirit angel materializing. He would vanish into thin air or just appear suddenly. That to me suggests an angel materializing. When Christ said he would "rise up his body", if he rose as a spirit, it would mean he brought his body back to life by reinhabiting it when he materialized it. Thus his rising his body again meant reconstituting his human body. JC

This is blatant envy. Paul was single, and quite envious of those who had women in their lives. He had the power to do some serious damage, and hence wrote the scriptures that relegated women to second-class citizens. Not only that, he was errant in taking the whole Bible literally when it was not meant to be taken that way.

Interesting, but I doubt Paul was "envious" since he was a eunuch (gay) and not having the usual attraction for women was considered a "gift."

On the other hand, the family is like an organization with each having their role. Just because women weren't "in charge" over men doesn't mean their role was not important. Everybody can't do the same things. Men can't bear children, can they? Is not that honorable? Further, the ultimate prize for any of mankind is to become part of the kingdom and women were not excluded, were they? No. So this was just an "organizational" arrangement much like a marriage, where the man is considered the leader but his partner, his wife, is extremely important. "Second class citizen" I would think is rather prejudicial.

But keep in mind, with more power comes more responsibility. Again, my position is that it's not that women couldn't be effective leaders, we know they can because there have been women ruling as queens and heads of state before. That's not the issue. It's just that in the congregation having equal authority with men would cause additional problems, and unfortunately, particularly in the Jewish culture, the women have a lot of baggage.

Plus, I think we can learn from nature. Like bees. There's a queen and lots of workers and the men are just kept for mating, basically. In other situations, the storks mate for life. Pinguins share responsibility for keeping the eggs warm. I think it's important to separate the idea of abuse of women from a woman fulfilled in her role. A woman loved and cherished by her Christian husband and family. There are some great partnerships out there.

Women were not meant to be in charge over men. Period. If so, the roles could be more easily exchanged. You know, let the wife marry 1000 husbands and 500 concuboys and see what happens. Men cannot give birth to a child either, though. So I think,under the present arrangement one should deal with their role and explore the grandeur of it, until after the end of Judgment Day, the human family will be more androgynous and we'll all have the same sexuality. That will be great because then you can have sex with anybody you want on the planet; in fact, it might be required over time! A completely open marriage like Christ has with his Bride Class, which numbers 1,440,000 (144K are from natural Jews).

Hello Joseph. I read through some points in the anti-Christ article. It is a complex discussion.

I won't comment on every point, but one of them would be that you can interpret some things in different ways where the ultimate meaning will compatible with varying views, so it would only be necessary to compare those views. For instance, when Christ says he will "raise up" his body after three days, that works as an angel he could materialize his body. Since other scriptures would come into play to deterimine this meaning or not, that reference would be considered inconclusive.

What I did find that I have an alternative opinion on is this statement you make:

When our Lord appears it will be in a body of flesh, Acts 1:11. And as "we the sons of God" have never experienced immortality "when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." Fulfillment of this scripture must wait until that time when Acts 1:11 is fulfilled, but this will be a body of flesh, immortal, human "as he is" for that is how our Lord appeared to John after his crucifixion.

This is a complex reference and so it serves to quote the entire verse for the context: "1 John 3: 2 Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is.

I believe this is a reference for those who see Christ at the second coming will be in the same type of body he is in, obviously, and thus they will see him just as he is at that time. That's because, Jesus' "as is" state at the time was as a spirit or in a materialized body. When Christ goes up into heaven he cannot take his materialized body with him, he must be in angelic form.

On the other hand, the first stage of the resurrection is back into the flesh since Christ and the anointed who are resurrected before the millennium will be back in the flesh. They do not get their spiritual bodies until man's last enemy death has been destroyed and that is not until after Judgment Day. That is, not until after all mankind have been judged and Death has been cast into the lake of fire, and that does not happen until after Satan has been let loose and then destroyed. That is when those in fleshly bodies along with Christ will be transformed into incorruptible spiritual bodies that can dwell in heaven.

However, the physical body that is contrasted with the spiritual body is not an immortal, incorruptible body, but an imperfect body. So when the Bible says that the resurrection is like a seed that is "sown into dishonor" or "sown into a physical body" that is literal. That means that those to be resurrected are placed into the imperfect physical bodies of other anointed ones and they remain that way until after the millennium is over and after Judgment Day is over. Since Christ himself will appear in an imperfect body as well, the body of the prodigal son and "Lazarus" at the second coming, of course those in the imperfect flesh will, as the scriptures say, be in the same type of body he has and also be able to see him just as he is.

Now as proof Christ will appear in the imperfect flesh at the second coming, is the second wave offering. Unleavened bread represents Christ's sinless body. Everybody knows that. Also everybody knows that the firstfruits represent Christ at the time of the two wave offerings. Well the first wave offering is without leaven and it is part of the celebration of the unfermented cakes. But the second wave offering is different. It is of two loaves with leaven. Leaven represents "sin" and imperfection and so the body of Christ at the second coming is correctly represented by a loaf with leaven.

Leviticus 23: 15 “‘And YOU must count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day of YOUR bringing the sheaf of the wave offering, seven sabbaths. They should prove to be complete. 16 To the day after the seventh sabbath YOU should count, fifty days, and YOU must present a new grain offering to Jehovah. 17 Out of YOUR dwelling places YOU should bring two loaves as a wave offering. Of two tenths of an e´phah of fine flour they should prove to be. They should be baked leavened, as first ripe fruits to Jehovah.

Now this, if anything, is completely fundamental. The unleavened bread represents the sinless body of Christ; thus the leavened bread represents the sinful body of Christ. Only the unleavened bread come first, representing the first coming, and the second wave offering of the firstfruits represents the second coming.

Now, Joseph, you'll love this! Few people other than yourself appreciate that Christ dies on Nisan 20th. But you do! As you know, Pentecost is 50 days from the 15th, and thus 45 days from the 20th. Christ's ministry over 3.5 years which included 43 lunar months thus can be compared to a period of 1290 days ending on the 20th. That means that Pentecost fulfills the "1335 days", a prophesy connected with the second coming. As you know, JWs used the "1335 days" prophecy to prophecy the second coming of Christ in connection with 1874, remember? So it's not a novice concept, whether one agrees with that interpretation or not, but since I know you're not into chronology, you'll have to accept my reference; chronology is not your area of expertise but it is mine.

Having noted that, obviously, not only are the two wave offerings not parallel but being different represent the difference between the first and second coming. There is no getting around the difference between the two firstfruit wave offerings and it begs for explanation, one that is clearly apparent. So that is all that is needed to establish that premise.

What we can do, though, is see if this is supported by any other reference in scripture, and it is. Case in point, Revelation, where we find a woman giving birth to the messiah at the time Satan is kicked out of heaven, and then that woman fleeing from Satan to a safe place prepared for her by God. The child is caught up to God in heaven after it is born. What can this mean? For one, we know this woman must be on the earth because that is where Satan has been cast. This woman, thus represents a special class of God's anointed servants. The child born to her, obviously, must be one of her members that becomes the messiah. But note where Jesus Christ is at this time. He's Michael the Archangel who along with his angelic host making up 2/3rds of the angels booted Satan out of heaven along with Satan's demon angels making up 1/3rd of the angels. But guess what?!!!! You have two messiahs going on here! So what gives? One archangel in heaven and one new messiah being born at the time Satan is cast out of heaven. Can we resolve this? Of course! There are indeed two messiahs at this time, but the infant messiah being caught to to God, to his "bosom position" means the two messiahs are combined. Thus this is Revelation's way of illustrating how the Christ in heaven takes up the imperfect body of one of his followers; one which further scriptures confirms is Lazarus and the prodigal son.

Finally, we know there is a critical difference between the first and second coming as the first time Christ dies once for all time for the sins of mankind. But the next time he arrives it is not in regard to sin. He arrives as a king-priest like Melchizedek. This is an important distinction between the first and second coming. Thus quite consistent with the setting of Jesus being represented as a king-priest by high-priest Joshua at Zechariah 3, we find the same scenario as the "prodigal son", where Joshua appears with befouled garments that need to exchanged for the "robes of state", just as the prodigal son is given new robes when he appears after a life of sin.

Zech 3: 3 Now as for Joshua, he happened to be clothed in befouled garments and standing before the angel. 4 Then he answered and said to those standing before him: “Remove the befouled garments from upon him.” And he went on to say to him: “See, I have caused your error to pass away from upon you, and there is a clothing of you with robes of state.” 5 At that I said: “Let them put a clean turban upon his head.” And they proceeded to put the clean turban upon his head and to clothe him with garments; and the angel of Jehovah was standing by.

The befouled garments represent his past sins, his receiving new robes represent his being forgiven, as this scripture clearly shows. You need only compare that to what happens to the prodigal son who arrives and is likewise given a grand new robe, "the best one", meaning the "robes of state", the robes of the heir to the kingdom:

The Prodigal Son Becomes the Messiah and gets new robes

Luke 15: 20 So he rose and went to his father. While he was yet a long way off, his father caught sight of him and was moved with pity, and he ran and fell upon his neck and tenderly kissed him. 21 Then the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy of being called your son. Make me as one of your hired men.’ 22 But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quick! bring out a robe, the best one, and clothe him with it, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened young bull, slaughter it and let us eat and enjoy ourselves, 24 because this my son was dead and came to life again; he was lost and was found.’ And they started to enjoy themselves.

See the similarity here? Zechariah is simply representing the nature of the second coming, where the prodigal son, represented by high-priest Joshua, an imperfect man with many past sins appears before Jehovah and Jehovah makes him the messiah.

But getting back to the issue of Christ's original body. Of course, he cannot materialize it any more after it had been offered in sacrifice. He gave up access to that perfect body and the right to have children by it. Logistically, therefore, there was the issue of how he would reappear in the flesh to rule as a king? Answer: One of his servants would be chosen to reincarnate Christ back into the flesh at the second coming. So after Christ rises to heaven, he lost his ability to materialize in the flesh again. The next time he would be seen in the flesh would be in the body of someone else. This was one reason why Christ, when reappearing over 40 days after his resurrection didn't just materialize in his same body or at least not the identifical appearance as before, but used different appearances. That's because that body would never be seen again and so his disciples wouldn't recognize him. In fact, part of the aspect of being like Melchizedek would even be that he wouldn't have a specific Jewish lineage! Thus just as the nation of Israel bowed down to God's king-priest Melchizedek when Abraham paid tithes, so in the end the Jews would again bow down to a non-Jew in the form of king-priest melchizek at the second coming, even though as Jesus Christ, he would have the legal right as a descendant of King David by virtue of his first coming through that line.

Now. If you don't have this understanding, then I'm wondering if you actually believe the Bible or not, right? But I'm wondering anyway since you dispise God's word by ignoring the chronology, right? Chronology is the "extra oil" of the wise virgins. You can't find your way clearly to the messiah without it.

So, Joseph, what you must do is to convince me that the difference between the two wave offerings, the first without leaven and the second with leaven are not fulfilled by Christ's body at the first and second coming, respectively. You can never. It's too obvious and direct. But I appreciate your opinion to dodge the issue if you wish like you dodge chronology. But denial is not a form of enlightenment.

JCanon,
Just click on my name above the picture and it takes you to my profile which contains my website. This is a feature of JWD. A good time to bring your profile up to date as well. OOPS, sorry they must have changed some of its features. Did not find it myself. http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/
Joseph
P.S. Fixed it at last. Thanks

Thanks! I did click on your name and it just gave me your stats, so I assumed as much as well. Thanks for the direct link! I'm sure others might not be as familiar either. JC

JCanon,
This is a Watchtower teaching and I have show it to be false. I did this in an article I wrote to refute a chapter in Stafford's first book called Identifying the Antichrist. You will find it on my website. Some of your other comments are also unsupported but that was to be expected.
Joseph

Um....and where is the link to your website and better yet, specific article? I'd appreciate a specific link, thanks!! I apologize if it is posted somehwere and I don't see it. But it's not apparent, sorry.

Hi Joseeph. I concede that I don't know "exactly" how Jesus did this. I suppose it would be consistent with scripture if he just changed his appearance or alterned the perception of this appearance in the minds of others. But they never recognized him even though he appeared to them several times. We know therefore that (1) he did not appear to them with the same appearance he had before, and (2) he didn't just adopt a new appearance but several!

If you provide a link to your specific rebuttal article maybe we can come to terms on some of the points, but would appreciate a specific LINK, thanks. I don't like going to people's webpages and then proceeding on a wild goose chase - (i.e. Oh yes, the lucky lottery ticket number is one of these numbers from 1 to 54! Good luck!)

As far as the "unsupported" statements I made, I'll be happy to support them with scriptures if you will be more specific about which ones you are talking about. You've made a vague, overall dismissal of my views, send me to your webpage without giving me a link to the webpage or any specific article? I have no choice but to presume you cannot competently define your view. However, if you are more specific, I'll be glad to provide the scriptural bases for my position on all the statements I make.

JCanon

Posts by JCanon

abomination of desolation

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abomination of desolation

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abomination of desolation

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"In all the congregations let the women keep silent."

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Did Jesus rise from the dead with 1.His physical body (or) 2. As a spirit

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Did Jesus rise from the dead with 1.His physical body (or) 2. As a spirit

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"In all the congregations let the women keep silent."

JCanon

Did Jesus rise from the dead with 1.His physical body (or) 2. As a spirit

JCanon

Did Jesus rise from the dead with 1.His physical body (or) 2. As a spirit

JCanon

Did Jesus rise from the dead with 1.His physical body (or) 2. As a spirit

JCanon