Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

I appreciate the depth of research and reasoning that Gertoux has undertaken but i still believe from a linguistic point of view that is impossible to determine the original pronunciation of The Name and therefore any dogmatic attempts to support ANY of the varients are futile,

Indeed, Wizzstick, I agree and appreciate Gertoux's exhaustive references and research. I also think Greg has done a great job of proving his preference.

That, as you assert, none of the proposed alternatives can be proved without a doubt, does not take away from the opinion I expressed in the OP. That Jehovah is not worse than Yahweh, and that in fact there seems to be good research supporting the idea that it may have been closer to Yeh-hoo-ahh rather than Yah-weh.

Anglicising Martin's IEHOVA as Jehovah (and pronouncing it djuh-ho-vuh, djee-ho-vah, or even as you hear in New England djuh-ho-vurr) is typical of the tradition of Biblical English names translation.

In Spanish Jehovah is Hey-o-ba' and Jesus is Hey-soos, quite clearly very distant from an original Hebrew and yet, Spanish comes from Latin, and Martin was a Spanish Dominican monk.

So I'm not being dogmatic, instead I'm objecting to the dogmatic view, some keep parroting, that Martin had it all wrong and that Yahweh is a better alternative to Jehovah.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

@freemindfade

Josephus is not my boy, there dude!

But since you ask about his statement...

What he wrote is that it was pronounced as is written, 1st clue.
Then that it was made up of four vowels, 2nd clue.

YHWH and YHWDH (Judah) are almost identical except for the D. You take the D out of Yeh-hoo-dahh and you're left with Ye-hoo-ahh. (If you prefer Ieh-hou-ah or Yeh-hwah, to me they're equally acceptable reconstructions in English sounds for the Hebrew originals).

Now, Josephus was writing in Greek Koine the scholarly lingua franca of the day, for an educated Roman audience. They were familiar with a God Father figure, Jove (back then as IOUE since the J was a later addition to the alphabet and the V was rather a U/W sound). Funny thing about Greek unlike Latin they didn't have a letter for the aspirated H nor a vowel for U/OO. The only aspiration is the rough breathing accent mark. The ypsilon had to be combined and preceded with an omicron (ov) to make a sound like in English U/OO (ex. rude, foodl).

So what I'm putting forth is that Martin the Catholic monk's using Jehovah instead of Yahweh isn't "wrong," and in fact it's closer to a logical reconstruction of what the Divine name would have sounded back then considering Josephus's writings and thousands of Masoretic vowel point amendations to the Hebrew text which clearly show a lack of the holam vowel that could serve as a clue to pronounce Adonay instead.

11

OMG They are right here in River City!

by myway2007 in

jw
friends

jacksonville, fl - the local newspaper had an article on the convention going on for the next two weekends.

while i could not find the article, i was able to find this slide show of this weekend's events.

the newspaper article was interesting as it discussed what a wonderful job they were doing cleaning the arena seats and bathrooms and everyone was enjoying their job.

oppostate

@myway2007

Indeed, and the "Society" is assigning retiring CO's to the area as well. Apparently there's a need and it's considered fertile ground for expansion.

Ex-CO Tom Chin (forced to retire due to turning 70, although he looks 50) and last assigned around here (Mass.) will be heading down in August, and spending special pioneer hours in service down in Jacksonville area (poor guy, imagine the heat and humidity).

In the Spanish congregation they are bemoaning the fact that a lot of second and third generation Latinos are more at ease speaking English than Spanish and attending English language meetings.

So if we put the two together the only real increase worth noticing can be found among communities with a heavy Latino presence.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

@wizzstick

Wait let me turn off troll mode for a second.
Greg Stafford (former JW apologist and founder of the Christian Witnesses of Jah)???
Oh boy...

Greg shows the extant forms found in the Hebrew Scriptures could be transliterated as Jah, Jahoh and Jahoah.

Take a look at his explanatory notes:

http://elihubooks.blogspot.com/2011/04/christian-witnesses-of-jah-jahoh-ah-god.html

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

@wizzstick

http://www.amazon.com/Name-Y-eH-oW-aH-Which-Pronounced-Written/dp/0761822046/

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

@freemindfade stop trolling around.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

So I can see the 4 vowels, but I can't find anyone suggesting it's pronounced "Yeh-hoo-ahh" aside from you?

Peruse some published references available from these two others:

Gérard Gertoux (president of the Association Biblique de Recherche d'Anciens Manuscrits)
Greg Stafford (former JW apologist and founder of the Christian Witnesses of Jah)

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

Can you name this source please?

Sure, see Josephus (The Jewish War. V:235).

Jehovah and Yahweh are not "both wrong" they are English translations of the same original name in Hebrew YHWH (JHVH), which was written only in consonants, but given clues like Judah=YHWDH (Yeh-hoo-dahh) and using "mater lectionis," as is written, one would pronounce YHWH as Yeh-hoo-ahh.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

wizzstick:
The table below shows the vowel points of Yehovah and Adonay,

You keep dwelling on the Masoretic tradition, and I repeat myself that this was a late development in the text. Josephus predates that by almost a millennium.

Besides how do you explain that in many texts the tetragrammaton only has a schewa and a qamats? The holam vowel does not appear in thousands of instances among the four consonants. This is thought to correspond to a redaction on the usage of ADONAY's vowels and pointed to a more accurately Hebrew term, which although pronounceable was substituted by SHEMA (meaning "the Name").

The pointing of this redaction lacks the holam, thus rendering it as YEH-HOO-AHH.

In Latin, Martin the monk, used IEHOVAH because the Latin I sounded like our English Y, later the initial I became a J since the consonantal I came to be written as J.

He also wrote V because in Latin V was both a vowel sound like OO and a consonant sound like W, it wasn't pronounced as V in English back then in Latin. In later pronunciation changes the consonantal V (W sound) became what we pronounce as V in English, this change has happened in many languages like in German and Dutch where the W is a V sound, and even in modern Hebrew the letter Waw has come to be Vav.

Today's Jehovah comes from IEHOVA(H) in Latin from Hebrew YHWH (JHVH). The research supports that using Jehovah is as good as using Yahweh. They are merely English translations for the Divine Name which could be more credibly pronounced in Ancient Hebrew as YEH-HOO-AHH.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

wizzstick [...] Based on this reasoning, the form יְהֹוָה (Jehovah) has been characterized by some as "hybrid form",and even "a philological impossibility".

I notice what you quoted from Wikipedia, and really the "hybrid form" of Adonay and Jhvh is a "philological impossibility." YHWH (JHVH) cannot be pronounced using the exact vowel points of ADONAY.

I don't doubt that Strong's number 3068 term (יְהֹוָה) was constructed by the masoretes and to use the same vowels would be a pronouceable "impossibility."

There is ample proof that the Saducee (Priestly) tradition is different from the Pharisaic (Rabinic) tradition. Whereas the Pharisees objected to the pronunciation of the name, the High Priest did utter it in worship.

Josephus was of priestly descent and his mother claimed loyal ancestry. He knew about God's name and the superstition not to pronounce it, nevertheless he points out that it is pronounced just as it is written.

The earliest texts of the Masoretes, who put vowel points on the text, only date back to the 10th century, a full thousand years after Josephus.

Without the vowel points, as these were added much later by the Masoretes, the Hebrew text was usually read with "mater lectionis" these were consonants that gave clues to pronunciation for example using the letter Heh for AH and Yod for I, or W for U/OO, and basically used as vowel markers. Thus Josephus says the Divine Name is pronounced as written, in Latin it has four vowels I, O, U, E, that is Jove which transliterated YHWH which was pronounced in Hebrew Yeh-hoo-ahh, like IOSUE which translated Yeh-ho-shu-a (Jehoshua, Joshua, Jesus).

oppostate

Posts by oppostate

Josephus is not my boy, there dude!

But since you ask about his statement...

YHWH and YHWDH (Judah) are almost identical except for the D. You take the D out of Yeh-hoo-dahh and you're left with Ye-hoo-ahh. (If you prefer Ieh-hou-ah or Yeh-hwah, to me they're equally acceptable reconstructions in English sounds for the Hebrew originals).

@wizzstick

@wizzstick

@freemindfade stop trolling around.