Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

@CalebInFloroda,

I told you I'm not trying to offend you. And if you are offended then you find offense where there isn't any meant.

You are nit picking parts of what I said without reference to others. How much percentage of the Jewish population in Israel really sing psalms in worship?

Close to about half the population consider themselves secular/non-religious Jews. Another quarter consider themselves hardly religious, and the ones that claim to be orthodox are less than a tenth of the population. These fanatical fundamentalists act like bullies. And they should be opposed--They wield too much influence as it is.

I've not yet had a chance to visit the Wailing Wall nor any of the Holy Sites, it is something I'd like to do. I've seen how Ladinos in Turkey hide what they are, out of necessity. I've been to Germany and seen the remains of awful acts of inhumane cruelty. I've learned of the gross abuses the Catholic Inquisition perpetrated on the Jewish population who were forced into baptism in my very own home country. It sickens me such things were done, it is a testimony to the cruelty of man towards his fellow man.

I am attracted to the teaching of a certain Jew from Nazareth, who said to love your enemies and that blessed are the peacemakers. This in no way condones violence against anyone, I don't believe in looking the other way in the face of evil. Jesus threw the money changers out of the Temple for a reason, these lucre-loving profit-mongers disrespected what the Temple stood for. I believe that there's a time for everything under Heaven. So be it.

Pharisee based Rabbinical Judaism doesn't take all their doctrine from the Tanakh, you are correct, and I stated such above in mentioning the tradition of Talmud loving students of Scripture. But that's not for me, sorry, and it seems it isn't for 3/4 of the Jewish population in the land of Israel. Are you declaring them non-Jews? What? Because they might have been at Woodstock and weren't hippies?

Give me a break Caleb! If the Tanakh wasn't settled until the first century, Torah certainly was, and even in the time of Josiah there was an attempt to fully establish the Law over the land.

I don't doubt you have many Ashkenazi friends who are not bigots. You remind me of WASPs who say "I have black friends!" And so what. None of that detracts from the factual point I made about the mistreatment of Jewish minorities among Israelis, and especially so by the fanatically orthodox. Why was Yitzak Rabin, may he rest in peace, killed? Who killed him? It wasn't a Palestinian, Caleb, and it wasn't a secular/non-religious Jew. Was it? Lo, no it was not.

Unlike you I do judge what Jewish fundamentalist fanatics do, and I think it's deplorable. It's inhuman, it is wrong! They are bullies and they should be opposed.

Despite what you might say, I still maintain I meant no offense and if you do take offense then you are blind to the fact that my gripe is with fanatics who impose their judgements on others, these folks deserve to be judged with the same measuring stick they whip their fellows. May God be their judge and not I, He well knows I have little patience for bullies.

19

What Can Circuit Overseers Who Come To Know The Truth About The Truth Do To Cripple The Delusional Watchtower Corporation?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

well it is only natural to assume that a modest number of cos&wives, bethelites, and other people are becoming enlightened shall we say as to the real sinister nature of these sociopaths called the faithful and discreet governing body slave bull shit artist.. so what besides making secret documents public can these do to get some type of satisfactional revenge for being used by them in such a cruel way or like a smuck who they don't even give one shit about.

what can these ladies and men do?

how can they get some form of pay back for all the years they wasted slaving for these no good greedy bastards called the governing fucking body?

oppostate

Although I wish so much it were so, I doubt any awakened CO & COW would dare go against the Momma WT.

There may be legal agreements one enters when accepting the position of CO, I don't know. But if other cultish religions are anything of an example I don't see ex-Scientologists or ex-Worldwide Church of God (Armstrong) or ex-Mormons bringing their religious headquarters to task before a judge on the grounds that they were duped by sociopathic charlatans.

Unless the WT hierarchy cracks down even more to the point of blatantly and physically harming these folks, all the CO's if awakened are just going to keep mum. Why? That's a good question, I think the answer lies in no longer having anything else to lose. Something like what happened to Ray Franz, Ed Dunlap, Jim Penton, Ron Frye etc. may motivate a CO to lash out and expose the WT for what it is. (Ron F. was a CO himself, and Ray F. became DO and a Governing Body member too, so there's those who did break the silence).

I think the WT is very careful these days and their legal team is quite savvy at forseeing trouble and scurrying to quench anything, even doctrines, that may spell trouble for the JW religion's Headquarters.

With so many DO's being deposed, and CO's put out to pasture in retirement, you would think that some of them, at least a few, are disgruntled enough to break the silence, but this doesn't seem to be happening and the WT seems quite able to avoid such a snafu scenario these days.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

Dear CalebInFlorida, you are totally entitled to your opinion. I make no judgement on your sense of being Jewish, as I make no claims to completely follow ancient laws written down by Moses. I used the connotation of superstition that means "belief" and not "fallacy". Others here may call such belief just that a "fallacy" to me they are traditions and customs, which are expansions and exaggerations of the precepts found in the Torah. Fundamentalist Jewish belief can be just as fanatical as Medieval Crusaders' who went slaying anyone who wasn't a Pope follower, both Eastern Orthodox Christian and Muslim cities were equally seiged, stormed and pillaged, the Jews were always found themselves caught in the middle and persecuted by all.

It amazes, it shocks me, how a Jew can excuse his murdering of a fellow Jew, a public figure like Yitzak Rabin. It appalls me that some Jews in Israel would opt to exterminate the Palestinians altogether, a Palestinian ethnic cleansing. Have we not learned from our experience as a people?

I have no problem in calling Kabbalism and Gematria superstitions, they should be called what they are, just like a religion that acts in cultish ways should be called a cult. And in my opinion that's what the JW religion actually is. As Oubliette likes to reminds us "Let's review: It's a cult!" Let's call it what it is.

Being descended from Sephardim I've also found prejudice from East European background Jews. They consider themselves more "Jewish" more deserving of belonging to the ethnic name, even secular Ashkenazi Jews show a propensity to look down on Sephardim. That's a very sad and very true fact of modern life in the Jewish State of Israel.

The Sephardim aren't alone in being ostracised. Karaite, Ethiopian and Messianic Jews are all minorities that are sidelined by the Ashkenazi Jews who have more influence.

In Bible times there were many sects, Saducees, Pharisees, Essenes, etc. We are now realizing how the Masoretic text is not as faithful as the Septuagint translation thanks to the Dead Sea Scrolls, these predate any masoretic surviving text by a thousand years. The Dead Sea Scrolls support readings that are found in the Septuagint but read different in the Masoretic text. Also there are "lacunae" in the masoretic text that are preserved in the Septuagint and appear confirmed in recompiled Dead Sea Scroll fragments.

One interesting point you bring up is the big impact of Babylonian captivity had on the worship of the One God. Before the Babylonian exile, archaeology reveals that in the Holy Land there was rampant disregard for unique worship of the Lord God (YHWH). There have been idol figures from pre Babylonian Exile found in every Tel just about.

The worship of Baals and fertility goddesses was quite widespread during those times. It was then that many prophets of YHWH declared condemnation for such pagan practices and insisted on exclusive worship of the One God. The use of the tetragrammaton was very obvious as can be deduced from the Biblical narrative and from archaeological finds from that era.

Yet the archaeological record also brings to light that the returning Jews worshiped the One God more exclusively than their predecessors. It is during this time that Talmudic traditions became more ingrained in Jewish culture and persist till today. It is a constant dialog of commentary on what the Torah actually means. It is not Holy Writ. The Talmud is a product of cultural tradition without the claim of inspiration.

The command to abstain from pronouncing the name of the One God isn't found in the Torah, nor the Prophets, in fact the Psalms abound with the tetragrammaton. These psalms were meant to be sung out loud, sung for others to hear, to sing together, to use in communal worship, not just personal meditation.

I maintain that the restriction to pronounce the Divine Name is a later practice/belief (and I'll not use the word superstition to define it if it bothers you, for that I apologize) that wasn't present in Biblical times. This belief/practice was a later development, and can be traced to post-exilic times.

Please accept my apology if in any of my statements you felt insulted, it was never my intention. I wish you peace. Shalom.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

@CalebInFloroda,

I'm from Sephardic stock, my mother and grandmother were born in Eastern Spain, my ancestors suffered just the same at the hands of so called Christians and Muslims.

Although there's a lot of overlap in definitions, the terms Jew and Israelite do not connote the same thought.

In Bible times Israelites used the Sacred Name in greeting one another in the street. The name of God was used thousands of times in the Hebrew Scriptures.

The Bible writers therefore don't show the same superstition modern Jews do of shying away from pronouncing or using the name.

Jewish superstitious practices like Gematria and Kabbalah use the tetragrammaton in inappropriate occult ways. But this type of uncanny practices are an aberration to the Torah.

A follower of Christ would do well to follow Jesus example and pronounce Abba, Father, instead of using any pronunciation of the Name (ha-Shem).

In the Book of Isaiah, the Lord God states: "I am YHWH that is my name." It is enough for a believer in the One God to put faith in Him and pronouce His name in whichever best fashion one can in one's own mother tongue.

Jesus told the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well that Salvation was through the Jews, and he made God's Name known to his disciples by showing them the power and the sacredness of His being. He taught them respect for and appreciation for the One who they should consider as Father, Abba.

Just as in Jesus time there are Jews who follow his teachings. And even if the majority of Jews deny Jesus as the Messiah, those who put faith in him do not cease to be Jews--just like secular Jews in modern day Israel do not cease to be Jews if they do not practice Judaism.

It is good to share views on the importance and relevance of the tetragrammaton. It is a part of our Jewish heritage and an opportunity to ponder how the worship of this One God has supported a people through great tribulations and oppression. The "handle" (ha-Shem) has given faith and perseverance to these who are dedicated/consecrated in His Name.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

I appreciate the depth of research and reasoning that Gertoux has undertaken but i still believe from a linguistic point of view that is impossible to determine the original pronunciation of The Name and therefore any dogmatic attempts to support ANY of the varients are futile,

Indeed, Wizzstick, I agree and appreciate Gertoux's exhaustive references and research. I also think Greg has done a great job of proving his preference.

That, as you assert, none of the proposed alternatives can be proved without a doubt, does not take away from the opinion I expressed in the OP. That Jehovah is not worse than Yahweh, and that in fact there seems to be good research supporting the idea that it may have been closer to Yeh-hoo-ahh rather than Yah-weh.

Anglicising Martin's IEHOVA as Jehovah (and pronouncing it djuh-ho-vuh, djee-ho-vah, or even as you hear in New England djuh-ho-vurr) is typical of the tradition of Biblical English names translation.

In Spanish Jehovah is Hey-o-ba' and Jesus is Hey-soos, quite clearly very distant from an original Hebrew and yet, Spanish comes from Latin, and Martin was a Spanish Dominican monk.

So I'm not being dogmatic, instead I'm objecting to the dogmatic view, some keep parroting, that Martin had it all wrong and that Yahweh is a better alternative to Jehovah.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

@freemindfade

Josephus is not my boy, there dude!

But since you ask about his statement...

What he wrote is that it was pronounced as is written, 1st clue.
Then that it was made up of four vowels, 2nd clue.

YHWH and YHWDH (Judah) are almost identical except for the D. You take the D out of Yeh-hoo-dahh and you're left with Ye-hoo-ahh. (If you prefer Ieh-hou-ah or Yeh-hwah, to me they're equally acceptable reconstructions in English sounds for the Hebrew originals).

Now, Josephus was writing in Greek Koine the scholarly lingua franca of the day, for an educated Roman audience. They were familiar with a God Father figure, Jove (back then as IOUE since the J was a later addition to the alphabet and the V was rather a U/W sound). Funny thing about Greek unlike Latin they didn't have a letter for the aspirated H nor a vowel for U/OO. The only aspiration is the rough breathing accent mark. The ypsilon had to be combined and preceded with an omicron (ov) to make a sound like in English U/OO (ex. rude, foodl).

So what I'm putting forth is that Martin the Catholic monk's using Jehovah instead of Yahweh isn't "wrong," and in fact it's closer to a logical reconstruction of what the Divine name would have sounded back then considering Josephus's writings and thousands of Masoretic vowel point amendations to the Hebrew text which clearly show a lack of the holam vowel that could serve as a clue to pronounce Adonay instead.

11

OMG They are right here in River City!

by myway2007 in

jw
friends

jacksonville, fl - the local newspaper had an article on the convention going on for the next two weekends.

while i could not find the article, i was able to find this slide show of this weekend's events.

the newspaper article was interesting as it discussed what a wonderful job they were doing cleaning the arena seats and bathrooms and everyone was enjoying their job.

oppostate

@myway2007

Indeed, and the "Society" is assigning retiring CO's to the area as well. Apparently there's a need and it's considered fertile ground for expansion.

Ex-CO Tom Chin (forced to retire due to turning 70, although he looks 50) and last assigned around here (Mass.) will be heading down in August, and spending special pioneer hours in service down in Jacksonville area (poor guy, imagine the heat and humidity).

In the Spanish congregation they are bemoaning the fact that a lot of second and third generation Latinos are more at ease speaking English than Spanish and attending English language meetings.

So if we put the two together the only real increase worth noticing can be found among communities with a heavy Latino presence.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

@wizzstick

Wait let me turn off troll mode for a second.
Greg Stafford (former JW apologist and founder of the Christian Witnesses of Jah)???
Oh boy...

Greg shows the extant forms found in the Hebrew Scriptures could be transliterated as Jah, Jahoh and Jahoah.

Take a look at his explanatory notes:

http://elihubooks.blogspot.com/2011/04/christian-witnesses-of-jah-jahoh-ah-god.html

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

@wizzstick

http://www.amazon.com/Name-Y-eH-oW-aH-Which-Pronounced-Written/dp/0761822046/

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

@freemindfade stop trolling around.

oppostate

Posts by oppostate

@CalebInFloroda,

I'm from Sephardic stock, my mother and grandmother were born in Eastern Spain, my ancestors suffered just the same at the hands of so called Christians and Muslims.

Although there's a lot of overlap in definitions, the terms Jew and Israelite do not connote the same thought.

In Bible times Israelites used the Sacred Name in greeting one another in the street. The name of God was used thousands of times in the Hebrew Scriptures.

The Bible writers therefore don't show the same superstition modern Jews do of shying away from pronouncing or using the name.

Jewish superstitious practices like Gematria and Kabbalah use the tetragrammaton in inappropriate occult ways. But this type of uncanny practices are an aberration to the Torah.

A follower of Christ would do well to follow Jesus example and pronounce Abba, Father, instead of using any pronunciation of the Name (ha-Shem).

In the Book of Isaiah, the Lord God states: "I am YHWH that is my name." It is enough for a believer in the One God to put faith in Him and pronouce His name in whichever best fashion one can in one's own mother tongue.

Jesus told the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well that Salvation was through the Jews, and he made God's Name known to his disciples by showing them the power and the sacredness of His being. He taught them respect for and appreciation for the One who they should consider as Father, Abba.

Just as in Jesus time there are Jews who follow his teachings. And even if the majority of Jews deny Jesus as the Messiah, those who put faith in him do not cease to be Jews--just like secular Jews in modern day Israel do not cease to be Jews if they do not practice Judaism.

Josephus is not my boy, there dude!

But since you ask about his statement...

YHWH and YHWDH (Judah) are almost identical except for the D. You take the D out of Yeh-hoo-dahh and you're left with Ye-hoo-ahh. (If you prefer Ieh-hou-ah or Yeh-hwah, to me they're equally acceptable reconstructions in English sounds for the Hebrew originals).

@wizzstick

@wizzstick

@freemindfade stop trolling around.