in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.
i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.
you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.
If Gertoux is the only one writing Wikipedia articles concerning the vowel pointing maybe so. Right!
No, but look at the vowel point explanation and how the best scholarly texts vowel point the Name--Whether in it's definite (Jehovah) or its construct (Jehovih) state. What pointed vowel is missing from the tetragrammaton in this explanation?
in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.
i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.
you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.
wasn't his deal that the word shema (the name) was used for the vowels instead of Adonai? our answer?
Huh! What a good little troll you're now, what a pleasant manner of asking.
I'll ask you this: Is there any rabbinical text saying "we vowel pointed the Name incorrectly so that you bozos don't abuse the pronunciation of it"?
But matter of factly, what you're asking, I've already answered before.
If what I wrote earlier is not clear enough an explanation I'll spell it out for you.
The assertion that the Masoretes mixed the Name with ADONAY's vowels would mean they knew what they were doing. That fact of itself shows that they would have to know a proper way and an improper way to vowel point the tetragrammaton. If the actual vowel points of ADONAY were used, they could not be pronounced grammatically.
If they changed the vowel points of ADONAY so as to make the tetragrammaton pronounceable this does away with the idea that they "substituted" the Name and read ADONAY instead.
Do you see what I'm saying? If they didn't use the exact vowel points of ADONAY because it would be unpronounceable why bother if they pronounced ADONAY instead?
I'm saying there's enough evidence to cast doubt on the idea that Martin the monk simply invented a name or was duped by a Rabbinical scribe's attempt to instruct readers to substitute ADONAY for the Name of the One God.
Furthermore, Hebrew nouns/substantives have a construct state, whenever two nouns are paired and one describes or identifies another noun it's pronunciation shifts. Whenever the noun (in this case the Name) is paired or constructed to form a thought from this merger, the first noun's vowel points reflect the shift in pronunciation of vowel quality.
in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.
i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.
you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.
You have to forgive my sense of humor because to me a religious belief system that claims man was made 6000 years ago
I do not forgive your sh!tty, idiotic humor.
You impute on me an uninformed belief system that has nothing to do with me or my understanding of natural science.
I do not claim to believe "man was made 6000 years ago" and your making such claims about me and whatever you think I believe is a contemptible travesty.
You can believe or not believe whatever you want Freemindfade. What I'm not sure about is what hybrid your family tree is comprised off, go back under your bridge you troll!
in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.
i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.
you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.
Jesus (who I think is a bit more qualified than you or I to convey god's preferences) used "father" and "my god" when referring to the Hebrew deity. That seems good enough to me.
It seems enough to me as well, Bonsai, to call him Father (Abba) as Jesus is reported to have done in the Gospels. But Jesus surely studied Torah and knew the actual pronunciation.
Josephus describes the Name, that it is pronounced as written and that it consists of four vowels.
Martin the monk should not be poo-pooed as an ignoramus who mistook a Jewish custom of name substitution for an accurate rendition of the pronunciation--And this is the point of the OP.
If ex-JW's go around saying that the word "Jehovah" is "incorrect" then they are wrong, it is just as correct as using Yahweh if not more so given the linguistic development from Yod-Heh-Waw-Heh to it's transliteration into other alphabets and translation into other languages with different stock of sounds in common use.
In Greek you cannot say YHWH as the Hebrews did because the sounds of Greek are different, and the Hebrew alphabet reflects consonants that aren't pronounceable using the standard sounds of the Greek language. That's why we have Iesous instead of Yeshua for example.
In Latin, which is closer to Greek than to Hebrew of course, there are sounds that match somewhat well enough to the sounds of YHWH although in the Early Latin alphabet the letters used would be IHVH. Latin, unlike Hebrew, makes use of vowel letters for pronunciation so IHVH becomes IEHOVA and that is exactly what Martin the monk presented in his writings.
Does this fact matter to anyone? Well, it just so happens to matter to me. It matters because to hear an ex-JW say that "Jehovah" is a wrong name, is just a declaration of ignorance and a lack of research.
Is Jehovah a mixture of YHWH and ADONAY? The thousands of times that the tetragrammaton appears vowel pointed in the Masoretic texts with only a schewa and a qamats imply that this is not the case. The central vowel of ADONAY is a holam and thir O does not appear above the Waw, as I said in thousands of instances of the Name as written by the Masoretes.
Researchers with more experience and aptitude than I have written publications that demonstrate what I put forth in this thread. It irritates me to see wrong assertions being passed along as factual evidence of practice. Really, Bible prefaces, forewords and dictionaries that continue to mention they don't include a form of the Divine Name because of a Jewish custom are just perpetuating an old wives' tale in my opinion.
The best pronunciation of the Name in Hebrew matters only to those interested in researching the subject. The fact that a translator should translate the Name into a form that is standard practice in his language is just the proper way to deal with the subject.
If you pick up a Spanish language Bible, then Peter is Pedro, and knowing that these forms come from Latin Petrus as a translation of Aramaic Kepha or its Hellenized form used by the Romans Cephas then it becomes important to you only if you wish to delve deeper into the person's identity and role within the Biblical account.
Now to have folks, members of the forum, come here and start flinging crap, saying it doesn't interest them and it's irrelevant, and posting silly videos of Goofy, alluding to Spiderman and whatever else these benighted gentlemen keep spouting off is just a crying shame and a put off for any JW who, awakening to the lies of the Watchtower, wants to research factual information not suppositions by narcissistic internet trolls bull-whipping their dorks to the winds.
special assembly was attended by 30,000 and 173 was baptized.. see video-footage given by english language belgian web site.. (interestingly, the press spokesman was a sister).. http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english.
COH: I bet 90% of those were born ins.
Yes, and sadly of quite a young age most likely.
close to 400 got baptized at the regional convention in stockholm attended by more than 50,000 witnesses from norway, sweden, denmark, iceland as well as greenland and faroe islands..
As a publisher in full-on mind-controlled JW-drone mode I would have been overjoyed over hearing of such a Convention. And hundreds baptized, what happifying news indeed!
Now, awake to the wiles and shenanigans of the WT, I feel so sorry for the folks who had to put up with mind-numbing, exhaustingly pointless sessions filled with pathetic, narcissistic outlines--delivered by less than competent speakers--who regurgitate the same old dribble, and recycled doctrinal vomit hour after excruciating hour for several days!
There will be those--it's consoling to think--who will be able to escape the cult in the next year. At least that's something to look forwards to with some anticipation.
i've met a few.
i'm not talking about the jw who, whether df'd or not, falls off the radar and just gets on with living a normal life - good luck to them and may there be many more!.
i mean the former jehovah's witness who is now enjoying all the benefits of a cult free life thanks to the efforts of many bloggers, posters and activists, but is critical of the efforts of someone close them to free more jws.
I am putting a book together to help fence sitters and even JWs (not that they'll read it).
You'd be surprised, Punk. I think there's a lot of traumatized ex-JW's and still-ins who feel trapped that would sincerely appreciate help to overcome the sense of hurt and disappointment the WT religion left them/us with.
It's like dealing with PTSD and having your mind fighting to heal the mental and emotional damage the WT inflicts.
Personally, I've downloaded into the Kindle just about any book exposing the WT that is available at Amazon.com, so I think you will find enough of an audience that is willing to read what you have to say about the JW religion.
in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.
i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.
you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.
Freeminds example of arguing over spiderman is apt, if only you care to think about it.
Right _Morpheus, and Judas Priest too.
No room for Spiderman trolling in this thread, sorry, go start your own topic. Maybe your Thor can weigh in on Scandinavian troll sagas and the veracity of comic heroes. Or Goofy can rebel yell into the discussion?!
If you have so little regard for the OP and it's relevance in this forum then why not just ignore the discussion and concentrate on taking part in topics you find more relevant? Oh! I almost forgot, you're just interested in trolling and making a nuisance of yourself. Right!
well it is only natural to assume that a modest number of cos&wives, bethelites, and other people are becoming enlightened shall we say as to the real sinister nature of these sociopaths called the faithful and discreet governing body slave bull shit artist.. so what besides making secret documents public can these do to get some type of satisfactional revenge for being used by them in such a cruel way or like a smuck who they don't even give one shit about.
what can these ladies and men do?
how can they get some form of pay back for all the years they wasted slaving for these no good greedy bastards called the governing fucking body?
It would be interesting if say for example Lett got tired of being told his idiosyncrasies are too distracting and he was put on the back burner. He resents that slap on the face and decides to lash back at the other six. A turf war ensues and he ends up leaving Bethel. The now GB-6 want him totally out of the picture, he starts airing dirty laundry, and they move to silence him into oblivion by attempting to DF him for unbecoming brazen conduct. He write a tell-all book.
Given the amount of negative "press" he's been given in ex-JW forums do you think he'd feel welcome enough to spew out the GB's secrets?
Could the ex-JW community accept him as one of their own?
Would he be able to measure up to the likes of Ray F. and his CoC and ISoCF books?
It would be interesting wouldn't it?
i have just found out that my brother (who was one of a bunch that shared this login) has died.. he and his wife were living in another country where they once pioneered.
i didn't see him that often.. such an empty feeling.....
I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your brother.
My condolences and heartfelt sympathy for you and yours, Stuck.
