Posts by oppostate

8

Celebrating small victories

by StarTrekAngel in

don't want to get into a lot of detail but it seems like my wife is finally having some flashes of awareness.

she's got them before, but not in very touchy subjects.

she was willing to seat down with me and look over some websites talking about some very controversial subjects that i do not dare to write about at the moment.

oppostate

For the time being, I am happy on sharing the good days with you all.

I'm very glad for you, STA.

I hope the progress to awakening continues.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

Can I play another goofy video yet?

Be my guest but do so on another thread, will you?

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

I'm assuming you agree that saying "Jehovah" or adding it to verses in the Bible isn't really proof of anything.

Using Jehovah is proof of a consistent tradition in expressing Hebrew names like Jehoshaphat, Jehohanan, Jehu, etc.

If one prefers Yahweh then why not do as the Sacred Name Movement followers do and use Yah-shua, Yirmiyahu, Yeshayahu etc. ???

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

Where does Josephus' 4th vowel come from?

IOUE:
1. I; 2. O; 3. U; 4. E. in Latinized form, which in English it's transliterated as Jove and for me translates into Jehovah. Not that Jupiter are the same, but that Jupiter (Deus Pater) and "Jehovah God/Our Father" are terms that may have been borrowed/shared for the name of a Supreme Fatherly Deity.

To me it doesn't matter that no one can be certain of the original Divine Name's pronunciation.

My conclusion is that the English tradition is to write down Hebrew names beginning with YH and YHW as Jeho- and Jehu-. Which at the end of some Hebrew names shows up in English as -jah and -jahu.

This isn't less worthy in any fashion to the more academically preferred Yahweh. I still maintain that these two suggested English translations for the Name are just that, a suggestion, a proposed pronunciation. In so being they are just as good, but I opt for Jehovah--it being more traditional English usage.

I too agree that we may never know the exact pronunciation with definite surety, and as it is common use in the Greek Scriptures of the New Testament, the encouraged way to call upon the One God for believers in Christ is to call Him, Father.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

@freemindfade

Hebrew names that being with yod though are consonants though no? Isaac for instance. Or Jerusalem.
Then still the E in the beginning, why is it not an A?

If I understand your question correctly, you're asking why Judah (Yeh-Hoo-Dahh) for example has its first letter Yod as a consonant and why is it followed by a short E, a schewa? If that's the case then the answer is Yod is a consonant it is sometimes used to give a hint at using an I (ee sound) or an E (eh sound).

Also the accentuation of Hebrew words is mostly at the end of the word, so you find that the beginning of a word has a short sound that is not accented or emphasized. (adoNAY, eloHIM, etc.) Semitic languages have words using a mostly three consonant root base, depending on the vowels used the meaning can be specified.

--

BTW sorry about mixing up "it's" with "its" I've done it several times in this thread. Dang it!

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

@freemindfade

I don't consider myself an expert, but I've been around, you know?!

Actually first thing I did when I woke up from the WT mind-fog was get my Master's and then Doctorate's degree.

I have no objections to Wikipedia as a resource. It's lists of references are ample proof that there is scholarly support in the literature for information found there which is regularly scrutinized and corrected right away if any trolls dare deface an article.

The tetragrammaton is accented on the last syllable, it makes the first or antepenultimate syllable turn into a schewa. When it appears in its contracted form "YH" it is pointed to show a full vowel "Yahh" or "Yahoo" (no funny business!).

Martin's IEHOVA would have been pronounced in Latin as "Yeh-ho-wa" or "Yeh-hoo-wa" and others before him proposed this as the proper way to pronounce the name as well.

The letter Yod is one of the "mater lectionis" or consonants that hint at a vowel sound like I or E, other consonants like Waw, Heh, Ayin can also play this role of consonant ~> vowels.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

If Gertoux is the only one writing Wikipedia articles concerning the vowel pointing maybe so. Right!

No, but look at the vowel point explanation and how the best scholarly texts vowel point the Name--Whether in it's definite (Jehovah) or its construct (Jehovih) state. What pointed vowel is missing from the tetragrammaton in this explanation?

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

wasn't his deal that the word shema (the name) was used for the vowels instead of Adonai? our answer?

Huh! What a good little troll you're now, what a pleasant manner of asking.

I'll ask you this: Is there any rabbinical text saying "we vowel pointed the Name incorrectly so that you bozos don't abuse the pronunciation of it"?

But matter of factly, what you're asking, I've already answered before.

If what I wrote earlier is not clear enough an explanation I'll spell it out for you.

The assertion that the Masoretes mixed the Name with ADONAY's vowels would mean they knew what they were doing. That fact of itself shows that they would have to know a proper way and an improper way to vowel point the tetragrammaton. If the actual vowel points of ADONAY were used, they could not be pronounced grammatically.

If they changed the vowel points of ADONAY so as to make the tetragrammaton pronounceable this does away with the idea that they "substituted" the Name and read ADONAY instead.

Do you see what I'm saying? If they didn't use the exact vowel points of ADONAY because it would be unpronounceable why bother if they pronounced ADONAY instead?

I'm saying there's enough evidence to cast doubt on the idea that Martin the monk simply invented a name or was duped by a Rabbinical scribe's attempt to instruct readers to substitute ADONAY for the Name of the One God.

Furthermore, Hebrew nouns/substantives have a construct state, whenever two nouns are paired and one describes or identifies another noun it's pronunciation shifts. Whenever the noun (in this case the Name) is paired or constructed to form a thought from this merger, the first noun's vowel points reflect the shift in pronunciation of vowel quality.

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

You have to forgive my sense of humor because to me a religious belief system that claims man was made 6000 years ago

I do not forgive your sh!tty, idiotic humor.

You impute on me an uninformed belief system that has nothing to do with me or my understanding of natural science.

I do not claim to believe "man was made 6000 years ago" and your making such claims about me and whatever you think I believe is a contemptible travesty.

You can believe or not believe whatever you want Freemindfade. What I'm not sure about is what hybrid your family tree is comprised off, go back under your bridge you troll!

91

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

by oppostate in

in another thread i wrote some notes about why using jehovah in english is as good as using yahweh.

i'm starting a discussion on this topic because it sounds quite ignorant to hear people talk of the monk who started using it in latin without really understanding why the monk did so.. the spanish dominican monk, raymundus martini, in 1270, didn't get hoodwinked by an old jewish superstition about pronouncing the divine name with the vowel points of another word.. 1. first the vowel points of adonay and jehovah cannot be the same for grammatical reasons.

you just can't use the same vowel points because some vowels aren't paired with some consonants in pronouncing hebrew words.

oppostate

Jesus (who I think is a bit more qualified than you or I to convey god's preferences) used "father" and "my god" when referring to the Hebrew deity. That seems good enough to me.

It seems enough to me as well, Bonsai, to call him Father (Abba) as Jesus is reported to have done in the Gospels. But Jesus surely studied Torah and knew the actual pronunciation.

Josephus describes the Name, that it is pronounced as written and that it consists of four vowels.

Martin the monk should not be poo-pooed as an ignoramus who mistook a Jewish custom of name substitution for an accurate rendition of the pronunciation--And this is the point of the OP.

If ex-JW's go around saying that the word "Jehovah" is "incorrect" then they are wrong, it is just as correct as using Yahweh if not more so given the linguistic development from Yod-Heh-Waw-Heh to it's transliteration into other alphabets and translation into other languages with different stock of sounds in common use.

In Greek you cannot say YHWH as the Hebrews did because the sounds of Greek are different, and the Hebrew alphabet reflects consonants that aren't pronounceable using the standard sounds of the Greek language. That's why we have Iesous instead of Yeshua for example.

In Latin, which is closer to Greek than to Hebrew of course, there are sounds that match somewhat well enough to the sounds of YHWH although in the Early Latin alphabet the letters used would be IHVH. Latin, unlike Hebrew, makes use of vowel letters for pronunciation so IHVH becomes IEHOVA and that is exactly what Martin the monk presented in his writings.

Does this fact matter to anyone? Well, it just so happens to matter to me. It matters because to hear an ex-JW say that "Jehovah" is a wrong name, is just a declaration of ignorance and a lack of research.

Is Jehovah a mixture of YHWH and ADONAY? The thousands of times that the tetragrammaton appears vowel pointed in the Masoretic texts with only a schewa and a qamats imply that this is not the case. The central vowel of ADONAY is a holam and thir O does not appear above the Waw, as I said in thousands of instances of the Name as written by the Masoretes.

Researchers with more experience and aptitude than I have written publications that demonstrate what I put forth in this thread. It irritates me to see wrong assertions being passed along as factual evidence of practice. Really, Bible prefaces, forewords and dictionaries that continue to mention they don't include a form of the Divine Name because of a Jewish custom are just perpetuating an old wives' tale in my opinion.

The best pronunciation of the Name in Hebrew matters only to those interested in researching the subject. The fact that a translator should translate the Name into a form that is standard practice in his language is just the proper way to deal with the subject.

If you pick up a Spanish language Bible, then Peter is Pedro, and knowing that these forms come from Latin Petrus as a translation of Aramaic Kepha or its Hellenized form used by the Romans Cephas then it becomes important to you only if you wish to delve deeper into the person's identity and role within the Biblical account.

Now to have folks, members of the forum, come here and start flinging crap, saying it doesn't interest them and it's irrelevant, and posting silly videos of Goofy, alluding to Spiderman and whatever else these benighted gentlemen keep spouting off is just a crying shame and a put off for any JW who, awakening to the lies of the Watchtower, wants to research factual information not suppositions by narcissistic internet trolls bull-whipping their dorks to the winds.