Posts by Wonderment

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

Thank you guys for the McGrath and Dunn's references. Hopefully, I will check them out.

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

still thinking: No, I have not seen any e-mail from you.

I want to add that by quoting a source about the masculine, neuter gender issue, I am not implying that God and Jesus are like MEN where male sex organs are present. That would be absurd.

However, the Bible was written by humans, though inspired by God, in a way we could understand things. The Bible itself shows a masculine-centered tendency. Thus, it is not unusual to depict God and Jesus as if they were masculine. But we all know they are spirits, not likely to be carrying around male genitals. What I find odd, is that while the NT speaks of God and Jesus in masculine terms, popular bible versions often change the neuter gender references of the spirit for masculine ones. The NWT generally reflects the Greek better in this matter. Why is that?

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz: "WT has quoted master Greek scholar A.T. Robertson (and misquoted him). If you would check out his thoughts, you would find full defense for Jn. 1:1 God vs a god; personal pronouns and the Spirit, etc"

A.T. Robertson was a brilliant scholar, but a Baptist. Greek grammar alone cannot be used to to show the correctness of the traditional rendering of John 1:1. Other scholars disagree with him on a good number of issues, both grammatical and doctrinal-wise.

Whether we were JWs or Baptists, we are all influenced by what others say. Again, caution is advised. Robertson is not a god. He was a human with all the limitations of humankind. I think it is far more important that a more knowledgeable person than he, Jesus Christ, wanted us to know that ‘the Father was greater than he was.’ And after resurrection, he still went around talking about his Father being ‘his God,’ and ‘the God of everyone else.’ (Jn 20:17) When he went to heaven, he felt no disconfort whatsoever telling the world about ‘his God.’ (Rev. 3:12) Why should we? For some reason, he did not say the same thing about the holy spirit.

I think Jesus has far greater credentials than the late A.T. Robertson. I love the simple statements of truth of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the one I look up to.

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz:

That site you cited for BeDuhn's lack of credibility is based on bias: their intent is to debase anyone who says just one favorable comment of the NWT. That is not a good source. BeDuhn has the credentials. It is sad that some go so low to smear his reputation, just to show the "incompetence" of the NWT. It goes like this: If any scholar says anything positive about the NWT, a host of emotionally charged individuals will jump on their case, and try to prove them wrong by claiming that "the majority of scholars" condemn the NWT, and so on. The assumption is that the majority is on the side of mainstream religion, so it must be truth, and anyone reading the NWT must be on the wrong side.

Yet, the Bible says that "the whole world lies in the power of the wicked one." (1 Jn 5:19) And that Satan is "the ruler of this world." (Jn 12:31) Satan is the "god of this world." (2 Cor 4:4)

Now, can anyone here be so certain that Satan has no control over mainstream religion? Thus, caution is advised.

I analyze both camps, and I find truth and falsehood on both camps. Thus, everything has to be compared with Scripture, and not with what the majority claim. The religious majority in Jesus' day were off the mark. Could the same thing be happening here? Be careful.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket. We can learn from anyone representing different views. We got to take it case by case, placing greater emphasis on simple bible statements, not human philosophy. Don't sweat the details, because we all lack complete knowledge. There is not one single source of truth, other than God and Christ. Can we live by that?

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz:

Says scholar Jason B. BeDuhn (B.A.; M.T.S.; Ph.D) on the subject
of personal pronouns:

“Now it turns out that both ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ Greek nouns can be used
for impersonal things as well as persons. But ‘neuter’ nouns are used only for
impersonal things, such as objects, animals, forces, abstract principles, and so on.
The same holds true for ‘masculine,’ ‘feminine,’ and ‘neuter’ pronouns. […] But
even though the ‘personal’ category is larger in Greek than in English, the ‘Holy
Spirit’ is referred to by a ‘neuter’ noun in Greek. Consequently, it is never spoken
of with personal pronouns in Greek. It is a ‘which,’ not a ‘who.’
It is an ‘it,’ not a ‘he.’” (Truth in Translation, Accuracy and Bias in
English Translations of the New Testament, p. 140)

BTW, The holy spirit is generally spoken of in the neuter gender, except when
it is personified, for ex. as a "Helper." Otherwise, the above applies. The Father and
Son are generally referred to in the masculine gender in the Greek Text. I hope you
take the time, as I have, going over occurrences of holy spirit in Scripture,
and you will see that Dr. BeDuhn is right on. Again, check Mt. 28:19 in the
Greek Text for a start. Can you do that, before accusing others of ignorance?

And John 4:24 you quote, Yes, the spirit is in the neuter gender, but "the God"
being a spirit is in the masculine gender. This agrees with the statements above,
does not contradict it. Is is not odd that just about everytime God and Christ
are mentioned, are in the masculine gender, and the spirit when mentioned next
to them are always in the neuter gender. Take Romans 1:1-4, where God and
Christ are found in the masculine gender. The spirit in neuter.

And what is the point of Jesus sending his disciples to ‘baptize people in the
name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit, when only the spirit is in
neuter gender? The word in the "name" is also in the neuter gender. The word
"name" is impersonal. Does not that weaken the trinitarian link?

Dr. BeDuhn has a full chapter in his book dealing with the holy spirit. I suggest
you read it before you accuse him too of Greek ignorance, because his findings
may conflict with your wishful thinking.

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz:

I see u provided 10 paragraphs, but not ONE scripture which proves the Trinity.

You mentioned John 1:1, how does that prove a trinity, when no holy spirit is mentioned. Your conclusion that "was" shows that Jesus was eternal does not hold up under one look at a Greek concordance. "Was" is used of other humans and things. After all, the heavens and earth ‘were’ created in the beginning. The earth was without form... (Ge 1:2, LXX) The sea "was" no more. (Re 21:1) Jesus disciples are with him from the beginning. (All forms of eimi) A Greek concordance will yield dozens of samples which show "was" is not a unique term used of Jesus alone.

There is a difference between saying "the Word became flesh" (Jn 1:14) and "incarnation." The first term is biblical. The second is foreign to the NT. I want to stick to bible terms as they are given to us. That is why I stick to "Son of God," rather than "God the Son."

Matthew 28:20 in my bible version does not say that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are 3 persons, nor that they are one entity. And when I go to the Greek text, I find the Father and Son in masculine gender, but holy spirit in NEUTER gender. Why?

You mentioned Ray Franz looking up to Christendom's reference works as fine works. But he never was able to make sense of the Trinity. All this "cumulative evidence", you speak of, when examined carefully, fall down like a stack of dominoes, one by one.

We can throw hundreds of nuts and bolts in a big bin, and shake them all we could, at the end, we won't obtain milk from it. Well, if we try hard enough, we may lucky to find adulterated milk.

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz:

Since you talk a lot, and feel so sure that Christ is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and since I avoid convoluted reasonings, just tell me ONE scripture that clearly says that God the Father, the Son and holy spirit are 3 persons with equal power and status.

Please don't quote me the "I am" sayings which does not prove your point. I am a sucker for simplicity. Just tell me ONE scripture that says everything you claim all over this site. If the Trinity is a bible teaching, it should not be difficult for you to share your zesty enthusiasm with ONE scripture. Please, because I can't find it in my bible. Am I missing some pages? Help!

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz:

You seem to be speaking from an EMOTIONAL standpoint, not valid reasoning.

5

New World Translation - regular edition PDF

by Caminante in

while browsing on jw.org, i suddenly spotted a new section under digital publications: bible!

as of today, the english edition of the softcover regular new world translation of the holy scriptures (bi12-e) is available in one full 15 mb genuine pdf file, converted from the original meps-composed postscript files!

take a look at it here: http://www.jw.org/index.html?option=qryqcsvrglvlyr.

Wonderment

Thanks Caminante for the link. I am happy as well for the news.