kepler:
Thanks for your information. I agree with your post for the most part.
But from your quoting Origen here and Chrysostoms in a previous post, I get the impression (not sure if I understand you correctly) that you seek to convey that since these theologians who were Greek knowledgeable used the John 8.58 statement just like it appears in popular English versions, then that's the way it should show be in our Bibles. In short, they are reflecting the Greek literally. There is nothing wrong with that.
Someone mentioned in this thread that the verb "eimi" is rendered 138 times as "I am" somewhere in the text. Again, I agree with that person that "eimi" should be rendered simply as "I am" in most cases. But here's the thing. "Most" cases does not equal "always."
I quoted James Moffatt, Professor of Greek and NT Exegesis at Mansfield College, Oxford, among his various accomplishments, who translated "eimi" for the most part as "I am." Well, we cannot question his Greek competence (nor Origen's or Chrysostoms, for that matter), but we can try to understand the way they used the Greek word in certain contexts. Since Origen and Chrysostoms were closer to the NT Writings, they stuck with the Greek words they were familiar with. However, if both of those men were to translate "eimi" into English today, that would be another story. They would probably end up doing what Moffatt did in his English translation. In the majority of cases, Moffatt renders eimi with a corresponding English present - I am.
However, Moffatt at John 14.9 translated the present form of "eimi" with a perfect indicative, like this: Jesus said to him, "Philip, have I been with you all this time, and yet you do not understand me?
And at John 15.27, Moffatt translated a present form of eimi with a perfect indicative: "and you too are witnesses, for you have been with me from the very beginning."
At John 8.58, Moffatt again took the present eimi and transferred the meaning of such with a perfect indicative in the English translation: "I have existed before Abraham was born."
In all the three cases above, the present verb eimi was in the presence of a past time marker: I have been with you all this time; you have been with me from the beginning; Before Abraham was born, I have been. Like grammarian Burton said: ‘English idiom requires the perfect indicative in such cases.’
We can easily see this with this illustration: A student ("John") at the front of the English class tells his classmates: "Before the donut restaurant close by was built, I eat (donuts)."
Now, will the English teacher let that grammatical blunder pass by? If the English teacher was alert, he or she would call Johnny out at once, and correct him: Johnny, you cannot use a present verb with an adverb of past time in the same sentence. You should say instead: I have been eating donuts since before that local donut restaurant was built.
Dr. Kenneth L. McKay argues that Jesus' response in John 8:58 “would be most naturally translated ‘I have been in existence since before Abraham was born,’ if it were not for the obsession with the simple words ‘I am.’" (“‘I am’ in John's Gospel”, Expository Times, 1996, p. 302)
So in essence, Jesus was telling those Jews: Since I was alive before Abraham was born, I am greater than your father Abraham. Yes, ‘from the realms above’ I came forth.
