Posts by Wonderment

Disillusioned JW: Wonderment, what you wrote about the word proskyne'o (worship) reminds me what is said in more than one of the translators' footnotes in the 1901 ASV Bible (and maybe in the 1881-1885 RV Bible also).

Good observation!

Traditionalists would probably crawl under the bed before welcoming this footnote which appeared in the American Standard Version of 1901 in John 9.38: First, a bit of explanation: The context deals with a man born blind being cured by Jesus, who then was moved to bow down before Christ in obeisance.

The text says: And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped* him. (John 9:38 ASV 1901)

The footnote of this version reads:

* “The Greek word denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature (as here) or to the Creator (see ch. 4:20).”

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Wonderment

Vanderhoven7: Do you see the Great Crowd as being New Covenant, heaven bound Christians?

I'm not sure what to make of the destiny of the Great Crowd, or how to interpret references alluding to the Great Crowd. You are welcome to forward your thoughts on this subject!

A couple of corrections:

In a previous post I wrote: there are a lot of WT issues I cannot harmonize with the Bible, like: their application of "the faithful slave" of Mt 24.45, where it is used in a sneaky way to displace the role of both Christ and spirit.

Instead of "displace," I meant "diminish" so the sentence now goes like this: there are a lot of WT issues I cannot harmonize with the Bible, like: their application of "the faithful slave" of Mt 24.45, where it is used in a sneaky way to diminish the role of both Christ and spirit. This is so because nowhere has the WTS ever stated officially they seek to replace Christ and spirit. They do, however, by their frequent actions of drawing self-prominence, push Christ and spirit aside, so to speak, so their followers can fully focus their attention on the mighty and always relevant WT organization, thus diminishing the role of both Christ and spirit in the lives of millions.

I also stated that proskyne'o (worship) appeared 179x in the LXX. Actually, it is far more with 228 instances (A. Rahlfs Edition).

Hence, the statement now reads like this: Three quarters (3/4) of its many uses in the LXX (228x) were connected to the worship of the One True God of Israel, and/or of the false gods of the nations. That means there is approximately one quarter (1/4) left of cases where it was applied to others beside God/false gods, that is to humans, among these. That's a lot of instances (57x) in LXX. Therefore, any modern exegesis related to this word from the NT must begin from this historical perspective.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Wonderment

Vanderhoven7: "I still wonder where you stand regarding faith in God and Christ.
Of course you are free to answer or ignore my questions. But I'd like to know:
1. Do you believe the Bible is God's word?
2. Do you considered yourself a Christian?
3. If yes to question 2, what do you belive makes a person right (justified) with God?"
1. Do you believe the Bible is God's word?

Yes, however, I believe there is some gray area here. I believe the Bible is a unique book, and very powerful at that. Nonetheless, the Bible as we have it today is not error free. There are hundreds of incongruencies found within its pages, whether textual or other. The Bible message has no real competition. It is the closest thing to the Word of God as we are going to get.

2. Do you considered yourself a Christian?

Yes.

3. If yes to question 2, what do you belive makes a person right (justified) with God?"

We can only be justified with God by accepting and having faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior, God's lifesaving provision to mankind. (Jn 3.36) There is no single human action or work in itself from our part that can accomplish such, however noble they may be. True Christian faith, however, will be made manifest in noble actions, some which may not be always obvious to others.

Do you agree with the WTS scholars who render "proskyneo" in the NT as "do obeisance"
when applied to the Son but "worship" when applied to the Father?
So I gather you do not worship the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Greek word "proskyneo" has a broad meaning admitted by scholars abound. It can have the common meaning of 'full worship' rendered to God, or to another deity. But it can also have the basic meaning of "bowing down" in obeisance before a superior, whether human or divine.

Do I worship Jesus Christ? Absolutely, but I do so with the comprehension of Jesus being the greatest Being on the universe, that is, after God. (Jn 14.28, 1 Cor 15.28, Rev 1.1) Also, I would have no issue of addressing Christ in supplication as Stephen did right before he died. (Act 7.54-60) Stephen appealed to Christ after seeing him "standing at the right hand of God."

My guess is that the NWT went from "worship" at Heb 1.6 in early versions to "obeisance" later for clarity reasons, not theology.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Wonderment

Vanderhoven7: Thanks for sharing. BTW, spoken like a true WTS apologist."

Me a "WTS apologist"? I don't consider myself their apologist. When I think of a WTS apologist, names like Greg Stafford, Rolf Furuli, scholars who at one time defended the WTS fully, throughout, come to mind. Not me! I agree with the WTS on certain doctrines: the Trinity has pagan roots, the soul is not inmortal, there is no hellfire, and perhaps a few other things I can add to that.

Notwithstanding, there are a lot of WT issues I cannot harmonize with the Bible, like: their application of "the faithful slave" of Mt 24.45, where it is used in a sneaky way to displace the role of both Christ and spirit. The way they apply their modern history with minute details to Bible precedents are nonsensical, for the most part. The overboard repetition of dates such as 1914, 1919, 1925, 1975, etc., and "the end is around the corner" dribble, are tiresome and fruitless. The Bible command to "abstain from blood" made mandatory for each individual in the blood transfusion matter, regardless of their personal conscience, is uncalled for. Their eagerness to sacrifice any individual in the altar of keeping their reputation holy by defending the WTS 'at whatever cost,' even to the point of lying, are some of the things hard to swallow for any Christian. The extreme disfellowshipping practice created to keep the flock scared of the mother organization has created a lot of pain in untold thousands, even death by suicide in some cases. Many families are thus broken with no existing communication among family members, including mine. Jotting down the preaching hours in a monthly report is just there to assuage people to more regular action, and keep them in line for income security. One cannot leave the WTS honorably by simply submitting a disassociation note, which leads to the worst inhumane treatment by others in the community and even by the family.

The WTS misapplies Acts 20.20, to the point that they have demanded for decades that each individual in the borg preach "from house to house," or else such ones will be found lacking "spirituality." Preaching can be done in many ways - hello! The WTS has created a system that rivals the Pharisees with their religious extremes. Thus, the WT members are quick to judge and criticize anyone not up to their standards. The Society quickly grabs praise from people who think their leaders, and they alone, can speak truth, not realizing God, Christ & the Bible are foremost the source of truth. They rarely make public acknowledgement that they owe a lot to the scholarship efforts of hundreds of mainstream scholars. I could go on and on.

My friend, the way I see this, one cannot simply side with one religious entity, and conclude that only they have the truth. We humans by norm have limited knowledge, we learn from others all the time, and everybody makes mistakes. We cannot just brush off the WTS as a total failure either. They may be right in some areas and wrong in many places. The same can be said of mainstream religions. They may be right in some doctrines and wrong in many others. I think it is better to stay humble, and be willing to analyze religious statements regardless of their source. It was Jerome (who the Catholics claim as one of their own) who translated the Bible into Latin, which served the needs for millions of Christians for more than a thousand years, until the modern European languages took over in translation. The Protestants too deserve their place in honorary lists by being at the forefront of Bible translation making. We are in debt to untold thousands of individuals who labored night and day, risking their lives to translate the Bible into modern languages -- Tyndale, Wycliffe, Servetus and many others who defended Bible truths.

Although the WT people have been the laughing stock of the religious world for decades, they have some brownie points in their favor. They have championed religious freedom for decades worldwide by spending huge amounts of money before the courts, and all religious people should be grateful for that. Too bad the WTS now has a disdain for religious freedom among their members.

When the NWT NT was first published in 1950, the religious folks scolded the WT effort to no end. However, some scholars took notice. One, if my memory doesn't fail me, was Paul Kahle, who was intrigued by the photos which appeared in the NWT Foreword. This led some to question the WT theory that the Divine Name was in the original NT. Most laughed at them. Nonetheless, as time passed by, more scholars have reached the same conclusion, as others in this forum have pointed out. This is no laughing matter. It is not wise to ignore this issue altogether.

Also, John 1.1 was the number 2 issue that drove Evangelicals wild in particular, to accuse the WTS of inept Bible translation. They often said: No Greek scholar would ever translate this verse as the WT has done. Then, a strange thing happened. Due to the power of internet, many began to notice that dozens of other reputable translators have rendered John 1.1 in a similar manner. Haven't you noticed that the criticism surrounding the NWT and John 1.1 has abated somewhat. I remember the fiery accusations of ineptness leveled at the WT by hundreds of preachers and scholars alike after 1950. But hey, they found out they criticized too soon, exposing their state of being uninformed on the subject.

And then the WTS has done the unthinkable, translate their own NWT into dozens and dozens of other languages, even into the rarely known languages of the globe. They came up with the first translation anywhere of the complete Bible into Sign language. You have to give merit where it is due. Just like I have called out the WTS failure for not acknowledging enough the efforts of scholars worldwide (Catholics, Protestants, & Jewish alike), for providing us with such valuable Bible material for many decades. They pick and choose quotes from these works, even ignoring the names of the authors, or where specifically in the books they take their quotes from. Not fair!

Hence, the whole religious matter to me is not a simple black or white, day or night thing. There is a lot of gray area in between. We don't have all the answers, and may never will. We don't have to shut the doors to different opinions, even if they come from unexpected sources. The truth is important, even if it hurts.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Wonderment

We can belief in anything we want. However, when it comes to the subject of Jesus Christ, the most important thing should be, not what we believe, but what Jesus himself believed and taught.

Jesus claimed to be only 'God's Son,' not God, after being accused of claiming he was God (or, a god): "do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?" (Jn 10.36)

Jesus directed others to worship, not him, but the Father, Mt 4.10: Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” At Jn 4.24, he taught: "the true worshippers will worship the Father [not me] with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him."

The Jewish people during the 1st century were very familiar with the meaning of the word proskyneo (worship, obeisance) as used in the Septuagint. Three quarters (3/4) of its many uses in the LXX (179x) were connected to the worship of the One True God of Israel, and/or of the false gods of the nations. That means there is one quarter (1/4) left of uses where it was applied to others beside God/false gods, that is to humans, among these. That's a lot of instances (more than 40x) in LXX. Therefore, any modern exegesis related to this word from the NT must be done by starting from this historical perspective.

Although it is stated in John & Colossians that 'everything was made through Christ,' both John & Paul cleared any potential misunderstanding of those words, by stating: "But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name. (Jn 20.31) Further, Jesus declared before others: Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me." --Jn 6.57. Would Almighty God ever say, "I live because of the Father"? God has no Father, but Jesus does. Even the book of Hebrews noted that Christ is depicted "at the right hand of God." (Heb 10.12)

Yes, Jesus is a Creator, but not the Grand Creator. As I stated before in this thread, the words "all" and "everything" in the description of creation by John, Colossians & Hebrews must be logically understood in a relative manner, since Paul indicated: the Christ is seated at the right hand of God. (Col 3.1) What's the point of Paul calling attention of the Colossians to the fact that Christ is seated at the right hand of God, if he was the Ultimate Creator, the Almighty God?

Furthermore, the use of the words of "all" and "everything" in the description of creation by John, Colossians & Hebrews goes hand-in-hand with the way we moderns use these words in our everyday lives. Ex., "the Church leaders took all the children to the city park." Does "all" here indicate that all the children of the city (or of the whole country or the world) went to the city park? Or more likely, that children associated with this Church went to the park? Context is everything.

Paul also noted that the resurrected exalted Christ was still under God in all matters: But I want you to know that... the head of the Christ is God. (1 Cor 11.3)

Paul appears to make a summary of Christ's place in the Universe in relation to God at 1 Cor 15.28: But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Again: "the true worshippers will worship the Father [not me, Jesus] with spirit and truth." There is no need to belittle Jesus Christ, since being the 'Greatest Being after the Father' is an honor. We all must 'bow down before Christ.' Our salvation depends on it.

Thus, all Scriptures cited by other posters need to be harmonized with these facts in order to reach a sound conclusion.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Wonderment

Riley: "Please don’t use that “ other “ crap. It makes my skin crawl."

Someone greater than Jesus gave him the name above every [other] name. (Jn 3.16, 14.28, Acts 4.12)

The "other" in the above sentence is implied by Bible context.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Wonderment

Vanderhoven7:

Is there a possiblity that you're misunderstanding SBF when he states that ‘placing faith in Jesus is also placing faith in the Father Jehovah, who sent him.’ (Those are my words, not his,verbatim. Actually this thought was conveyed by Christ himself at Jn 14.1)

If the President of USA sends Nancy Pelosi to Taiwan to convey the message that we as a country will stand by Taiwan should China try to invade Taiwan (She may say to them: "You will be safe with us") ... Should we, or they, conclude then, that all Taiwan needs from now on is Pelosi , forget the President of USA who sent her, no need for him any longer. Pelosi is now God. The Messenger then became 'greater than the Sender'? End of matter?

You make it sound like all a Christian needs to do is believe in Jesus and you're done. Not quite! Even mainstream scholars understand there is more to it than that.

Within the Jewish mode of thinking, they already had, for centuries, honored the God of the Hebrews YAHO (so they thought), but would they now honor the Messenger of God, Jesus? It was vital for the Jews to accept this new 'instrument of salvation' provided by their God. Jesus was clear when he communicated that they now had to ‘honor the Son as they honor the Father.’ (Jn 5.21) Jesus was not there to replace the Father as "the Most High" God. (Jn 14.6, 20.17, Ps 83.18, Lu 1.35)

I know there are various interpretations surrounding Jesus' role in the whole scheme of things. One scripture that stands out as a summary of why Jesus is so important in the lives of not only the Jews, but also of everyone else on earth, is this one from John 20.31: "But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name."

From what you're saying, someone can get the impression that faith in the Father is no longer necessary. 'Jehovah is superflous,' or so it seems. But the whole emphasis of Christian writings is there to convince people everywhere that 'Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, through whom we gain everlasting life.' Someone greater than Jesus gave him the name above every [other] name. (Jn 3.16, 14.28, Acts 4.12)

2

Linking documents between various devices

by Wonderment in

i would like to know how some of you link your various computers, tablets, phones and the like?

do you network them?

or, do you use secure shell (ssh)?

Wonderment

Thanks Simon for the tip!

2

Linking documents between various devices

by Wonderment in

i would like to know how some of you link your various computers, tablets, phones and the like?

do you network them?

or, do you use secure shell (ssh)?

Wonderment

I would like to know how some of you link your various computers, tablets, phones and the like?

Do you network them? Or, do you use Secure Shell (ssh)? I have used the open source "ssh" and "Syncthing" to link devices together.

Recently, I found out something simpler to use to share documents, photos, etc., and it was right there in front of my nose all along -- Signal & Telegram messengers:

Signal, has what they call "Note to Self" (Just type it in their search box), where you can dump, copy, paste, or whatever you want to call it. Once you link your devices together, whatever you put in the "Note to Self" message, it will automatically show up at once in all your linked devices, in a few seconds (time dependent on type & size of documents).

The same with Telegram: Telegram has what they call "Saved Messages." In this box, you can drop whatever you like, and if you have linked devices, it will show up on all of them at once. Even better, with Telegram you can create all the independent "channels" you want for different tasks or themes, say Bible, Books, Photos, Music, or what have you. You can move them around as you please.

Telegram has huge limits on storage amounts, making it a very popular medium for a storage device. I suggest you make these channels "Private," instead of "Public," unless you want everyone else to see what you store in them.

Let me know if you find this tip useful, or perhaps, let us know of better available options.