Ding: "Imperfect humans run every religious organization on earth, but they don't all claim to be God's sole channel of communication.
Nor do they all insist on being believed and obeyed without question."
Agreed!
Wonderment
JoinedPosts by Wonderment
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28
Do we blame the Governing Body too much?
by no-zombie ini'd like to start this post with a part from the movie 'v for vendetta'.
here in a dystopian state, the main character named v, explains why things have gone so bad ....
those who do not want us to speak.
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Wonderment
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Why are aqwsed12345 post`s so long ?
by smiddy3 inthere is no way i will even try to read such long posts and i`m sure many others here would agree with me.. smiddy3.
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Wonderment
aqwsed12345: Of course, I don't claim that I invented all this out of thin air, I am just a "dwarf standing on the shoulders of giants", as Bernard of Chartres said.
It has been said that "actions speaks louder than words." The impression that some of us may get from your posts is that they scream: "I know this subject better than anyone else here," even if this is not true. You have said (or implied) that others are being blind or retarded Watchtower advocates if they dare defend any WT doctrinal point or viewpoint.
I like that you go deep in your studies, and your messages may be well-intended, but at the end, it comes thru as condescending to others that can't keep up with your intensity -- not upbuilding at all.
I don't criticize you for defending the Trinity at will. Rather, it is the tone. For instance, another regular poster here by the name of "Vanderhoven7" is an avid Trinity defender no less, yet, he normally submit his posts with respect toward others. I admit I enjoy some of his posts, and I have learned quite a few things from him. I tend to read his posts because they are often informative. We can learn from him, or others who communicate with a calm tone.
If you allow me, can I suggest you tone down your messages a bit, provide briefer posts overall, and try to find some common ground with other posters that disagree with you. I will try myself to follow this advice. No one has complete knowledge. So as your quote indicated, we all learn from others before us. Keep up your solid studies!
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John 1:1 - Koine & Modern Greek Comparison
by Wonderment inhave you ever wondered why john 1.1 reads somewhat differently in koine and modern greek?
i will briefly address this question for the curious ones.
below you will find three greek readings, one from the nt greek text, followed by two modern greek versions: the nwt-2017 edition, and the other by spyros filos (wikipedia: a revision of the vamvas translation of the bible into the modern vernacular (demotic greek) by spyros (spiros) filos (σπύρος φίλος) was first published in 1994. this translation is used in the greek evangelical church and is also recognized by the orthodox church.
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Wonderment
Blooty: In modern Greek ... is there any difference in placing Theos [without the article] before or after the verb? since modern has a form of an indefinite article.
The differences in meaning are relatively subtle and context-driven. In this case, the essential meaning of the sentence remains the same.
Although Modern Greek has an indefinite article within its grammatical toolbox, its main usage is to indicate numerical sense, not to indicate nonspecificity. Ex., "Θέλω ένα καφέ." (Thélo éna kafé.) - "I want one coffee." In Modern Greek, the use of the indefinite article with a numerical sense is more prominent and distinct. In turn, the English indefinite article main function is to indicate nonspecificity., but it can be used numerically to specify "one."
When Greeks want to signal nonspecificity, they usually drop the article (the equivalent of "the") as is done with "theos" in the last part of this verse. Hence, Modern Greek versions do NOT add the article "the" before "theos" in John 1.1c in order to make it definite.
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John 1:1 - Koine & Modern Greek Comparison
by Wonderment inhave you ever wondered why john 1.1 reads somewhat differently in koine and modern greek?
i will briefly address this question for the curious ones.
below you will find three greek readings, one from the nt greek text, followed by two modern greek versions: the nwt-2017 edition, and the other by spyros filos (wikipedia: a revision of the vamvas translation of the bible into the modern vernacular (demotic greek) by spyros (spiros) filos (σπύρος φίλος) was first published in 1994. this translation is used in the greek evangelical church and is also recognized by the orthodox church.
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Wonderment
Have you ever wondered why John 1.1 reads somewhat differently in Koine and Modern Greek?
I will briefly address this question for the curious ones. Below you will find three Greek readings, one from the NT Greek Text, followed by two Modern Greek versions: the NWT-2017 edition, and the other by Spyros Filos (Wikipedia: A revision of the Vamvas translation of the Bible into the modern vernacular (Demotic Greek) by Spyros (Spiros) Filos (Σπύρος Φίλος) was first published in 1994. This translation is used in the Greek Evangelical Church and is also recognized by the Orthodox Church. - Copyright © The Holy Bible, Spyros Filos Translation, copyright 1994, latest edition 2013, by Pergamos Publications):
1. Koine Greek (SBL GNT Greek Text):
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
In beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was toward the God, and god was the Logos.
2. Modern Greek:
Στην αρχή ήταν ο Λόγος, και ο Λόγος ήταν μαζί με τον Θεό,
In beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was together with the God,
and the Logos was god.
και ο Λόγος ήταν θεός. (NWT-Modern Greek)
3. H Αγία Γραφή στη Δημοτική (The Holy Bible in Demotic [Popular Idiom] - by Spiros Filos):
ΣTHN αρχή ήταν ο Λόγος, και ο Λόγος ήταν προς τον Θεό,
In beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was towards the God,
και Θεός ήταν ο Λόγος.
and god was the Logos.
In comparing the three versions of the verse above, we are able to see some differences. First, notice that the two modern versions drop the original diacritical marks. Glossing the first clause of the verse we have, “in beginning (Ἐν ἀρχῇ)” in Koine changing to “Στην αρχή” in Modern Greek - with same meaning. “Στην” is a contraction of the modern Greek preposition "σε + την" (in the).
The verb “ἦν” from the NT (third person singular) shows up as "ήταν" in the modern texts. The change from "ην" (ēn) in Koine Greek to "ήταν" (ítan) in Modern Greek reflects an evolution in the Greek language over the centuries. Both "ην" and "ήταν" are forms of the Greek verb "[eimí, NT] είμαι" (eimai), which means "to be" or "to exist."
In the second clause, the Greek NWT has “μαζί με τον Θεό.” “Mαζί με” is a common Greek phrase meaning “together with,” or “along with.” It is used to indicate the presence or association of someone or something with another person or object. Thus, it can be translated simply by “with.”
Next, we notice that the original “θεόν” in “τὸν θεόν” (NT) now appears as "τον Θεό" in the modern Bibles. This is another of the subtle changes occurring in the Greek language through its evolution. In Biblical Greek, the accusative case of the word "Θεός" (Theós) was "Θεόν" (Theón) when it functioned as the direct object of a sentence. However, as the language evolved, many consonants at the end of words were weakened or dropped in the spoken language, leading to the loss of the final "n" in some instances. This process, known as synizesis and apocope, contributed to the simplification of certain word forms and eventually resulted in the modern accusative form "Θεό" (Theó) for "Θεός" (Theós).
Any discernible difference in the third clause can be explained by the above, with the exception that the Greek NWT has “theós” after the verb “was,” unlike the other two readings which have “theós” preceding the verb. The Greek NWT rendering is obviously following the structure of the English translation, per se, which is both acceptable and contemporary in Modern Greek.
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Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament
by pizzahut2023 inok i'll bite.. let's say for a moment that jehovah's witnesses are right, and that the nt autographs (the originals) contained the tetragrammaton.let's say that the nt writers always wrote "jehovah" in greek (iexoba, as the witnesses spell it currently) when they quoted the hebrew scriptures, whether they quoted from the hebrew version or the septuagint, and jehovah's name appeared on the quote.
let's say that the original septuagint always had iexoba whenever they were referring to jehovah.then we have that the original septuagint said in psalms 101:26-28 the following:"at the beginning it was you, o jehovah, who founded the earth, and the heavens are works of your hands.
they will perish, but you will endure, and they will all become old like a garment.
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Wonderment
aqwsed12345:
Your long answer is indicative that those who push trinitarianism as true biblical doctrine are uncapable to answer basic questions like the two I posted:
>> Could you please provide Scriptural proof for the following statement?: The "I" from his lips could signify his divinity as well as his humanity.
Could you please provide Scriptural proof for the following statement?: As God, he was equal to the Father, even one with him in unity; but as a man, he was clearly lesser than the Father.
Please provide one or two scriptures which simply say what you claim! <<You first answered:
While indeed this is the main reason, Trinitarians do not have to explain Jesus' kind of "subordination" exclusively from His humanity: it can exist even if we consider that He is the Son, and the Father is the Father. This does not imply a difference in divinity, but only voluntary (love-related) subordination resulting from the order of origin. Another explanation could be what ancient ecclesiastical authors called "economy of salvation," which they understood as mutual adaptation for the sake of salvation in action and operation.
This does not answer the above questions simply. Then you proceeded to select some Scriptures which by scholar's own admissions are debatable within the biblical community. And furthermore, they do not serve any proof of the above.
Lastly you wrote: And Col 2:9 clearly proves that Jesus possessed the fullness (pleroma) of the deity (theotes, and not theitotes), not just some kind of demigod, lesser god ("a god") "quality". (Emphasis added.)
Really? Col 1.19 states: "...God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him." It was by an act of God almighty that this fullness of Christ came about. If Jesus was God all along, why would it be necessary for him to receive "all fullness" that he was lacking somehow. Col 2.10 says the Christian Colossians "have acquired a fullness by means of him, the one who is the head of all government and authority." What kind of fullness is this reference about?
Someone may say, that as a man Christ was not all of God, but once in heaven he regained his glory, attributes and wisdom pertaining to God alone. If so, Jesus was not God and man fully as claimed on earth as we are repeatedly told to believe, a contradiction that can only be explained by Greek philosophical arguments that require many paragraphs of intent. Hard as I tried, I could not find the great difference that supposedly exists between the Greek term theotes and theiotes, other than the wishful declarations of Trinitarians on the subject.
And that's my point! Poster "smiddy" was right challenging anyone to simply explain the Trinity without sounding as a philosopher of ancient Greece. "smiddy" is still waiting for someone to take up his challenge, and you are welcome to fulfill it, and publish it for us to read.
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Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament
by pizzahut2023 inok i'll bite.. let's say for a moment that jehovah's witnesses are right, and that the nt autographs (the originals) contained the tetragrammaton.let's say that the nt writers always wrote "jehovah" in greek (iexoba, as the witnesses spell it currently) when they quoted the hebrew scriptures, whether they quoted from the hebrew version or the septuagint, and jehovah's name appeared on the quote.
let's say that the original septuagint always had iexoba whenever they were referring to jehovah.then we have that the original septuagint said in psalms 101:26-28 the following:"at the beginning it was you, o jehovah, who founded the earth, and the heavens are works of your hands.
they will perish, but you will endure, and they will all become old like a garment.
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Wonderment
aqsed12345: But didn't Jesus himself say, "The Father is greater than I am?" Of course he did, because as a man, he was unquestionably lesser than the Father. The "I" from his lips could signify his divinity as well as his humanity. As God, he was equal to the Father, even one with him in unity; but as a man, he was clearly lesser than the Father.
Could you please provide Scriptural proof for the following statement?: The "I" from his lips could signify his divinity as well as his humanity.
Could you please provide Scriptural proof for the following statement?: As God, he was equal to the Father, even one with him in unity; but as a man, he was clearly lesser than the Father.
Please provide one or two scriptures which simply say what you claim! Don't want to see three pages of convoluted material presented. Otherwise, why should anyone take your repeated claims seriously?
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How Do You Know You Are In The Wrong Religion?
by Vanderhoven7 ini believe this list which many of us worked on needs to see the light of day again...and added to if possible.. you know you are in the wrong religion:1. when the all important question is not: "do you believe in the lord jesus christ?"....but....
"do you believe in the "faithful and discreet slave" appointed in brooklyn in 1919?"2.
when you will be refused baptism if: a. you don't believe jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bc (whereas all non-jw scholars, all encyclopedias and all history books say this event took place in 587 bc.)b.
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Wonderment
Vanderhoven7,
You pose some good questions on your list.
I suspect also, that some of us could come up with similar lists addressing other religious groups as well.
In all, we should humbly reconsider where we stand on many present issues regarding our faith.
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Complete New World Translation Released in Russian Sign Language
by Wonderment inglobal news
complete new world translation released in russian sign language.
on may 27, 2023, brother mark sanderson, a member of the governing body, announced the release of the first ever complete new world translation of the holy scriptures in russian sign language (rsl).
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Wonderment
MAY 31, 2023
GLOBAL NEWSComplete New World Translation Released in Russian Sign Language
On May 27, 2023, Brother Mark Sanderson, a member of the Governing Body, announced the release of the first ever complete New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures in Russian Sign Language (RSL). A total of 148 people attended the in-person program. An additional 5,000 people from 15 countries viewed either a live stream or a recording of the program. The newly released Bible is now available on jw.org and in the JW Library Sign Language app.
One deaf brother commented: “When I view the Bible in sign language, it is as if I can see Jesus reacting to people’s suffering. It touches my heart so much!”
Before the Bible was released in RSL, many deaf Witnesses relied on the printed Bible in Russian. However, because RSL is a very descriptive language, some publishers struggled to grasp the meaning of a number of expressions.
For example, in the account at 1 Kings 17, the widow from Zarephath told the prophet Elijah that she and her son would die after they had eaten. Some deaf publishers thought these words indicated that the widow’s food was spoiled or poisoned. In the RSL translation, it is more explicit that this was the last of their food.
RSL is used by a variety of people from different nations and cultures. Therefore, the translators took local linguistic variations into account. One of the translators explained: “A sign may mean ‘sin’ in one region but ‘God’ in another. Additionally, the sign for ‘disciple’ in one area means ‘last’ or ‘poor’ in a different area. As a translation team, we tried to use the most well-known signs and expressions.”
We rejoice with our brothers and sisters who use RSL and thank Jehovah for blessing them with this beautiful gift.—Proverbs 10:22.
Project Highlights
RSL is used by several million people living in countries that were formerly part of the Soviet Union, as well as in Germany and Israel
Jehovah’s Witnesses began actively preaching in RSL in the early 1990’s
The first publication that Jehovah’s Witnesses translated into RSL was the brochure What Does God Require of Us?
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To All Those Keen To Tell Us About Their Beliefs
by Simon inwe seem to have had an influx of religiots - the people who want to tell us all about how we / the wts / whoever are wrong, wrong, wrong about everything and how right they are.
they obviously have special insight, or voices (probably voices, right?
) telling them the real truth.. as proof, there is inevitably a wall of random scripture references and quotes.. sorry, but we're not here for that.
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Wonderment
A few years ago we had a poster (Named: God Rulez-?, or whoever) who wrote excessively long posts, disputing every other poster with page after page of all sorts of Scriptural and philosophical arguments. He didn't allow for other posters to express their opinions without being told they were either stupid or ignorant on religious matters. Only he was fortunate enough to have the deep knowledge required to deal with these subjects that everyone else was lacking. Ultimately, he was forced out, I think.
Now someone else comes along carrying a name of various letters and numbers reviving such behavior. He (or, she) pretends to be smarter and more knowledgeable than every other person found present in this forum. Consistently long posts and numerous endless quotes are used to dominate the narrative. Everyone else is being told they are being 'owned by their Boss' (WT Society?) for expressing a different opinion. No one else can keep up with this individual.
I wonder if this recent situation is the one provoking the interest of Simon. Or, is it something else?
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New Material Available in the Study Bible
by Wonderment innew material available in the study bible.
new material has been added to the study edition of the new world translation of the holy scriptures on jw.org and in jw library.
this release features new media gallery content.
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Wonderment
SBF,
"I’m a bit disappointed they haven’t released the notes for Hebrews yet. It’s taking ages for them to complete the Study Bible for the New Testament alone. Goodness knows if they’ll ever compete the OT."
I also noticed audio recordings of the books of the Bible into other languages are going slow-as-molasses. I wonder if cost-cutting efforts have anything to do with this.
Your comments are always welcome!