Posts by Wonderment

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz:

Since you talk a lot, and feel so sure that Christ is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and since I avoid convoluted reasonings, just tell me ONE scripture that clearly says that God the Father, the Son and holy spirit are 3 persons with equal power and status.

Please don't quote me the "I am" sayings which does not prove your point. I am a sucker for simplicity. Just tell me ONE scripture that says everything you claim all over this site. If the Trinity is a bible teaching, it should not be difficult for you to share your zesty enthusiasm with ONE scripture. Please, because I can't find it in my bible. Am I missing some pages? Help!

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz:

You seem to be speaking from an EMOTIONAL standpoint, not valid reasoning.

5

New World Translation - regular edition PDF

by Caminante in

while browsing on jw.org, i suddenly spotted a new section under digital publications: bible!

as of today, the english edition of the softcover regular new world translation of the holy scriptures (bi12-e) is available in one full 15 mb genuine pdf file, converted from the original meps-composed postscript files!

take a look at it here: http://www.jw.org/index.html?option=qryqcsvrglvlyr.

Wonderment

Thanks Caminante for the link. I am happy as well for the news.

328

Jesus Is Jehovah/Jehovah Is Jesus

by snowbird in

http://www.str.org/site/news2?page=newsarticle&id=5725.

i fought against this with all my wts-trained power, but truth prevailed.. any way you cut it, it comes out the same.. peace and strength in your search.. sylvia.

Wonderment

snowbird: "The crowning point of the WT's error, imo, is their mauling of John 1:1 and 8:58.

There is simply no justification for their mistranslation of those verses." Sylvia

"Mauling"? Not so quick!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/34916458/The-correct-translation-of-John-1-1

http://www.scribd.com/doc/35318309/The-correct-translation-of-John-8-58-List-of-alternate-readings-to-I-am-I-have-been-I-was-I-exist

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Wonderment

godrulz:

Proskyneo = (fall down and ) worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully. (Shorter Lexicon of the Greek NT) Proskyneo basically means "towards to kiss." (pros) and (kyneo). It can be rendered "worship" when the object is God, or, it can be rendered as "do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before someone (a superior, a human)," etc. Thus, it is up to the translator to choose which one to use. If the translator thinks Jesus is subordinate to God, he will choose "do obeisance to," and if he thinks Jesus is identical to God, he will likely choose "worship." Not all will choose "worship", see list below, some of these translators are trinitarians, but they acknowledge the basic sense of the Greek word. It is not fair to the NW translators to accuse them of being sectarian. It is a matter of translator's understanding of bible context, and not due to "evil intentions" for translators to prefer one reading over the other.

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament : “In the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance , whether in order to express respect or to make supplication.”

“ And let them bow before him --all messengers of God” ( Young's Literal Translation)

“ And let all the angels of God pay him homage” (George R. Noyes New Testament)

“ And let do obeisance to him all angels of God” ( The Apostolic Bible Polyglot)

“ and let all God's angels do him reverence ” (The Bible in Living English , by Steven T. Byington)

“ And let all the angels of God bow down to him ” ( Riverside New Testament , William G. Ballantine)

“ Dénle homenaje [ Give him homage ] todos los ángeles de Dios [all angels of God] ” (Pablo Besson)

“ Let all the angels of God bow down before him ” ( Twentieth Century New Testament)

“ And let all God's angels bow before him ” ( Edgar J. Goodspeed New Testament)

“ Et que tous les anges de Dieu lui rendent hommage [And let all angels of God pay him homage ] ”

(French Darby Bible)

“ And let all God's angels pay him homage” (The Authentic New Testament , by Hugh J. Schonfield)

“ Before him shall bow all messengers of God” (Andy Gaus New Testament)

“ Let all God's angels pay him homage ” ( Revised English Bible)

“ And may all the angels pay homage to him” (Heinz W. Cassirer's New Testament)

“ Let all the angels of God pay him homage ” ( New Jerusalem Bible)

The very first chapter of Hebrews depicts Christ as a Son, not God, who sat at the right hand of the Majesty (God). It says "he has become better than the angels," but never that he was God. Verse 9 shows God as the speaker saying to Christ: "That is why God, your God, anointed you..."

Col. 1:16 and John 1:3 does not indicate the Jesus was the Source of Creation. The Greek shows it was "through" Christ that God created everything else. Col. 1:15 tells us Christ was the "firstborn of all creation." In the bible, "firstborn" is always a creature. The term is never applied to God or the holy spirit.

Rev. 3:14 says: "This is what the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the one who is in the origin of things created by God." (Biblia de América) This translation has been approved by various Episcopalian dioceses in Central and South America.

By the way, Christ himself said on the subject of divorce, that "from the beginning of creation He [God] made them male and female..." (Mark 10:6) And to the Devil testing Jesus, he quoted from the Old Testament that "It is the Lord [Jehovah] your God you must worship..." He did not say to the Devil: "It is me you should worship.

Christ gave the credit to God for the creation of Adam and Eve, and told everyone else to worship God. (John 20:17) Was Jesus a "cultic Arian"?

Thus, it appears that trinitarians are the ones misapplying Scripture. Just because we avoid the Witnesses' tactics, does not mean that the Trinity must be a bible teaching.

"Do obeisance to..." is as good translation from the Greek as "worship" is. Take your pick, but don't accuse others of being "sectarian," when there is no need to.

5

Learning Biblical Hebrew?

by digderidoo in

hi all,.

i've been thinking about attempting to learn biblical hebrew through the summer and wondered if any of you scholars out there have a site or resource to recommend?.

paul.

Wonderment

If you want to try a couple of books, try these:

Teach Yourself to Read Hebrew, by Simon & Anderson. It is brief, 92 pages, but big easy to read letters and the basics to get you started. It has received good reviews at Amazon.

For an intermediate introductory grammar: Biblical Hebrew-An Introductory Grammar, by Page H. Kelley, 453 pages. Also at Amazon for reviews.

Sometimes, it's hard to beat the feeling of a good book in one's hands.

1

Recommended bible reference works

by Wonderment in

i would like to suggest a few books to those sincerely open to one recommendation:.

english interlinears: i find the kingdom interlinear and the word study greek-english new testament by paul r. mcreynolds the most useful of all.

after that, the concordant greek text and the diaglott.

Wonderment

I would like to suggest a few books to those sincerely open to one recommendation:

English Interlinears: I find the Kingdom Interlinear and the Word Study Greek-English New Testament by Paul R. McReynolds the most useful of all. After that, the Concordant Greek Text and the Diaglott. Maybe Marshall's Interlinear too. Most other interlinears are barely useful.Those with Spanish knowledge, check the recently published El Nuevo Testamento Interlineal Griego-Español by César Vidal. I think this is a superior effort than that of Francisco Lacueva's Interlinear that's been around for some time.

For the Hebrew Spanish: Antiguo Testamento Interlineal Hebreo-Español. This work is not the best effort, but there is no other published that I know of for the complete OT in Hebrew-Spanish. On the English-Hebrew side, The Complete Library, and the NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament. And for those using the Septuagint and NT, The Apostolic Bible Polyglot which contains the whole bible in interlinear form.

Greek Grammars: Manual Grammar of the Greek NT by Dana and Mantey, and NT Greek by James Allen Hewett.

Hebrew Grammar: Biblical Hebrew, An Introductory Grammar by Page Kelley.

Enjoy!

123

Translating the NWT in the Shadows

by JuanMiguel in

note: the following is not meant to be construed as a recommendation but to demonstrate the sharp contrast between any authentic bible translation and the new world translation.

for those of us who participate and or read the threads on this board, i understand and appreciate that all here have different views on religion, the existence of god, and of the catholic church.

i believe each individuals convictions should be treated with the utmost respect and dignity.

Wonderment

JV

Are you really that gullible? That story of yours which I read somewhere else means nothing. Just because some in Bethel or outside of Bethel think this is a joke, it does not mean it is a joke.

I have checked the NWT directly against the Hebrew and Greek text numerous times, and it shows the falsity of your claim. You also cite other sources that put the NWT down and the transcripts of a court case in Scotland which people wrongly use to belittle Franz and the WT translators. Other sources do not prove conclusively anything. You have also some sources, to a lesser degree as expected, who side with the WTS. By you repeating this anecdote here shows that you have not taken the time to delve into the subject, and expose yourself to the ridicule of others who have done more research. Stop spreading slander!

The Scotland court trascript has been misquoted, misrepresented by WT antagonists for ages. They should be ashamed of their dishonesty. The only thing that the Scotland trial showed in reference to Franz was that he said, 'he was not going to attempt translating Genesis 2:4 from English to Hebrew which is totally different than what Bible translators are accostumed to... which is translating from Hebrew to English. This is misreported time and again by mostly evangelicals with a mission to destroy, not build.

By the way, ALL bible translators use bible aids when attempting translation, and the court floor is not the place to engage in bible textual exercises in dubious tactics of an examiner with questionable motives. Franz was smart enough not to fall in that trap. If Franz was the translator, there is ample evidence by hundreds of observers, that he was competent in the handling of some languages other than English. If he was capable to teach himself those other languages, and have a command of them, as I can testify, there is no reason to doubt his statement that 'he furiously applied himself to Greek and other languages in private.' Yes, there are countless other people saying he had cero knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, which I know it to be false. Any person can go around the web and check these claims, and how others have exposed their lies, or their many inconsistencies.

By the way, you say that Franz all he did was take the Emphatic Diaglott and rephrase it. Again, this shows you have not done your research. The Kingdom Interlinear is evidence that someone (Franz?) had a command of the Greek. Please don't quote me an evangelical scholar who most likely hate JWs. Don 't you understand, that many folks take religion more seriously than politics and could teach politicians a lesson or two on dishonest campaigning. The Kingdom Interlinear is so different from the ED in their translation principles. And what about the Hebrew portion? The ED did not offer a Hebrew translation.Who did the NWT copy for the Hebrew portion? Tell me, please, so I can check it out.

The truth is that the NWT is closer to the Hebrew and Greek text than it is to other versions. Why don't u take up a course in those languages before you make public unsound stories which cannot be sustained.

I have not been to a Kingdom Hall in 20 years or so, my family avoid me as much as possible because I have expressed sincerely where I do not agree with the WT. However, I sincerely believe the NWT is not the main problem of the WT. Putting aside some theological tendencies evident in the book (as is true of every bible version out there), the NWT is actually a good translation.

What you could do instead, is try to communicate how the "faithful and discreet slave"parable is mishandled by the Society, not because of ignorance, but because they knowingly misuse this scripture to demand loyalty from the JW masses. Now there, you would have a rightful claim.

Blessings!

123

Translating the NWT in the Shadows

by JuanMiguel in

note: the following is not meant to be construed as a recommendation but to demonstrate the sharp contrast between any authentic bible translation and the new world translation.

for those of us who participate and or read the threads on this board, i understand and appreciate that all here have different views on religion, the existence of god, and of the catholic church.

i believe each individuals convictions should be treated with the utmost respect and dignity.

Wonderment

Juan Miguel says:

>>"Accurate Even Without Using YHWH in the Text" (in reference to NABRE)

Let's take this further: Let NABRE take Jesus' name away from the NT, and replace it with LORD the nearly 1,000 it appears in the NT. Can we honestly say that NABRE now is "Accurate Even Without Using Iesou' (Jesus) in the Text"? I don't think so!

Is removing Jesus name from the NT text as "bad" as it is for the NWT to add it to the Greek text?

Also, it seems most religious people "babble" some divine name. Jesus' name is being "babbled" about by Catholics and Protestants alike, no less than JWs with the divine name. The question is: Do we see it?

Hey, we all fall short of God's glory!