Posts by Wonderment

52

Colossians 1:15-16 and the word "other"

by yogosans14 in

"he is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities.

all [other] things have been created through him and for him.

" (col. 1:15-17, for context.

Wonderment

yogosans14: "Nevertheless, there is a Greek word for "first created," and it was in use at the time of Paul's writing to the Colossians."

The Greek word for "first-created" was not in popular use until after the first century, and when it did become popular, people used both "firstborn" and "first-created" interchangeably to refer to the same thing. Besides, existing biblical words such a"birth" were often connected to the idea of creation. Thus, the term first-created was not required biblically to express the concept that Jesus was created.

yogosans14: "That is obvious since Jesus is God in flesh ( John 1:1,14 ) and is also the first born son of Mary."

This statement reflects personal interpretation, not an actual biblical statement. The Word was the one who became flesh. Not God!

yogosans14: "Second, the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family ( Luke 2:7 ), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20 , 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him . . . I also shall make him My first-born." (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family, was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence."

If "firstborn" meant preeminence based of Psal 89.20, would this indicate David was only preeminent, and never born? If one takes a look at a Concordance for the original words for "firstborn," do we find the meaning of preeminence throughout? We don't! What is the customary meaning of firstborn in the Bible? Jesus was ‘the firstborn of the dead.’ If Jesus was being described as preeminent of the dead, would the description rule out the fact that Christ never died?

As to the meaning of "panta" in relation to Christ, Paul defined the word in 1 Cor. 15.27 in a way that God was cleary excluded from the description in the text. Why is that so hard to understand? Oh wait, Trinitarians don't like simple biblical statements. They yearn for the mysterious over simplicity. Who can compete with a "mystery"? Or a "philosophy"?

29

Exodus 24:10 - The Israelites saw Jehovah? Has this scripture ever been explained?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

has anyone really pondered what this means?

jehovah said that no man can see god and live, and here at least 70 people saw jehovah standing on a bright blue pavement.

24 then the lord said to moses, come up to the lord , you and aaron, nadab and abihu, and seventy of the elders of israel.

Wonderment

Gleason L. Archer Jr., Ph.D. explains:

"Only a symbolic representation was beheld by Moses and his companions upon this occasion, as is later made clear by Num. 12:8 where Yahweh states, ‘With him Moses, I speak mouth to mouth ... and he beholds the form (temunah -- as used in the second commandment, where it is translated as ‘likeness’). That means that those who ‘saw’ God on these various occasions saw a form, or resemblance, such as is described in Rev. 4:3 ... Representations of God were granted to prophets like Isaiah (ch. 6) and Ezequiel (1:26), but never did they gaze upon his essence." (TCBL)

13

Colossians 1:15,16 all (other) things

by truthwillsetyoufree in

this thread isn't meant to go into discussing how deceptive the society has been over the translation of this passage of scripture as that has been done many times on here.

what i want to know is this - the society has inserted the word other in the collosions verses and the one in philippians (above every (other) name).

they've done this for doctrinal matters.

Wonderment

truthshallsetyoufree:

Bobcat is correct in his comments.

You may find a more detailed answer below:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/209607822/Colossians-1-16-Is-the-translation-all-other-things-appropriate

9

why does the NWT refer to christ as the christ. to me this is taking away his Sovereignty

by goingthruthemotions in

it just kills me when i look at the scriptures in the nwt and alot of times when it refers to jesus christ it says the christ.

to me this is taking away his .

sovereignty.

Wonderment

The words ‘the Christ’ appears 143x in the NWT. Like Old Goat said: "The NWT uses the phrase "the christ" because that's what the Greek text says: ὁ χριστός. ho christos. The christ."

Here's one instance (1 Cor. 6:15) where "Christ" appears in Greek with the article "the" and without. The NWT shows that. So does Byington's translation. The ASV and the KJV don't.

What is wrong with that? Two bible versions follow the Greek, and two don't. Of course, there are other Bibles available to support both renderings. Which one do you prefer? Why criticize the one that sticks to the Greek?

19

Android or iPad? Help please.

by Xanthippe in

jw
friends

it seems i am going to have to teach people to use a tablet as part of my job and i don't even have one!

any advice would be most helpful please.. i keep reading blurb on amazon etc and now i'm really confused.

what should i buy?

Wonderment

If you value flexibility and freedom, go with Android.

Apple is fine if you are willing to be held hostage to this one company in every way. Apps are cheaper or free with Android.

Also, within a few months, Google is going to target the desktop more and more. So expect Android apps to work anywhere, even in Chrome OS, Windows, Mac, Linux, etc. Try that with Apple.

13

Pretty Sad

by piztjw in

it really is pretty sad that the gb and their "fair-haired-boys" cannot get their stories straight even from one day to the next.. friday, while touting the greatness of jw.org the rc speaker bragged about the web site being translated into over 400 languages.

on saturday splane bragged about it being translated in 369 languages.

while that is close to 400 it surely isn't over 400.. then yesterday one of the speakers said, "the mormon church is investing on internet web site outreach.

Wonderment

piztjw said: "Friday, while touting the greatness of JW.Org the RC speaker bragged about the web site being translated into OVER 400 languages. On Saturday Splane bragged about it being translated IN 369 languages. While that is close to 400 it surely isn't OVER 400"

Hey piztjw, don't you realize these differences can be easily explained like we tend to do with Bible discrepancies.

You see...those two speakers were not contradicting each other. They were just describing the facts from a different angle to the different audience next day. For instance, on Friday the RC speaker looked at the facts and stated conservatively -- that they had definite plans to translate into 369 languages. But on Saturday, Splane more liberally included an additional 30 languages being talked about by the GB to be added to the previous list which the Friday speaker did not get care to elaborate on, until there was more certainty on the matter. You see, there is no contradiction. It all depends how you look at it.

Don't you remember how Bible discrepancies can be explained likewise. Keep in mind these two speakers are Bible students above all, so they know how the system works.

Hey, take this as playful speculation! Just don't ever doubt the Governing Body, lest you be destroyed!

40

Ladies - how often should you wash your hair??

by quellycatface in

jw
friends

i've cut my hair washing from every 2 days to every 4 days and this week, i've left it 7 days.

it's been growing much better and is in great condition!

any tips for growing your hair lush and lovely?.

Wonderment

Though I am a male, I want to add that many in the know seem to swear that extra virgin coconut oil is excellent for the hair. Has anyone here tried it?

4

Matt 28:19,20 is a poor proof text

by Rattigan350 in

matt 28:19 go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit,".

has never made sense to me.

where did jesus get this about the name of the father, son & holy spirit?

Wonderment

Me thinks the words, "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" are a post-biblical addition to the original text.

Perhaps more scholars would mention the possibility of an "interpolation" here if it were not for the fact tha the words as they appear in current Greek texts sound "sweet" to trinitarian ears, representative of the majority of scholars. There is nothing remotely close to this "trinitarian" formula anywhere in Scripture, hence the reluctance to admit it openly.

41

I survived a 3-hour manipulation session with 2 elderettes!

by Faithful Witness in

i'm not sure how else to describe this meeting at my kitchen table.

my elderette ("miss k") arrived with her friend in tow.

i vaguely remember the 2nd lady ("miss w") from the times we went to the kh, but like miss k, we never really talked in depth.

Wonderment

Island Man: "Actually, that is a NWT mistranslation of Matthew 24:39. Jesus did not say "took no note". If you look at the greek it actually says the people ‘did not know’. Jesus was actually comparing the people of Noah's day not knowing the timing of the flood with the fact that people would not know the timing of his future presence. That was the whole point of his comparison with the days of Noah. The context makes it clear when you read it carefully from Matthew 24:36."

The Greek word for "took no note" (to know) can mean many things, and have many implications, including "sexual intercourse" in some contexts. Grammar then, is not the issue, context is. At Matthew 24:39, other translators understand the Greek term to mean:

Twentieth New Century: "Taking not notice"

ISV: "They were unaware"

BBE: "And they had no care"

Rotherham: "they observed not"

Living Bible: "people wouldn't believe"

21st Century NT: "they were completely unconcerned"

Kevin Condon: "no one gave heed"

Andy Gaus: "and didn't notice anything"

NWT: "took no note"

41

I survived a 3-hour manipulation session with 2 elderettes!

by Faithful Witness in

i'm not sure how else to describe this meeting at my kitchen table.

my elderette ("miss k") arrived with her friend in tow.

i vaguely remember the 2nd lady ("miss w") from the times we went to the kh, but like miss k, we never really talked in depth.

Wonderment

The Searcher:

"Ask them to explain the difference between 'upon' and 'over', and if they can think of a single example where both words could possibly mean the same thing.

Then refer them to the false translation of Revelation 5:10 in the NWT & RNWT, but also to the correct translation of the Greek in their Kingdom Interlinear Translation - which is reinforced by the diagram of the Greek words inside the front cover.

Ask them why a specific Greek word has been substituted with a different one in their translation?"

I believe one can make a case of wrong interpretation within the context of Scripture regarding the application of the preposition epi, but not on grammar grounds.

The preposition epi has variable meanings, including that of "over." The Shorter Lexicon of the Greek New Testament by Gingrich/Danker defines it: "With the genitive--1. of place, lit. and fig. on upon ...Before, in the presence of ... Over of power, authority, control Lk 12:42; Ac 6:3; Ro 9:5; Rv 5:10; 17:18."

Thus, it is not wise to use the Kingdom Interlinear against the New World Translation to determine the right or wrong translation of a preposition. A good interlinear like the KI just shows the basic meaning of a word, but the translation on the right, or any other for that matter, has more leeway in expressing the various nuances of a Greek word.