What if we could exchange one president from another country to yours?... say Trump for Trudeau, Trudeau for Trump, Trump in exchange for your respective European country, etc -- for a few years? Would you consider it a win or a loss for your country?
Wonderment
JoinedPosts by Wonderment
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What would happen to your country if you could exchange your president for Trump?
by Wonderment inwhat if we could exchange one president from another country to yours?...
say trump for trudeau, trudeau for trump, trump in exchange for your respective european country, etc -- for a few years?
would you consider it a win or a loss for your country?.
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Wonderment
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Why do we see only brown-colored people in USA detention centers?
by Wonderment inwhy are for the most part brown-colored people held in detention centers?
where are the rest of illegal immigrants?i think the question is valid -- as one website noted: "the u.s. government does not maintain reliable demographics of who is in immigration detention..." (https://www.freedomforimmigrants.org/detention-statistics).
a canadian woman not too long ago said to me (spontaneously - i did not bring up the subject) the following words when she heard the live tv news broadcast, which dealt about the immigrants being held at dozens of detention centers in usa: "i am canadian, and i have been living here illegally for 29 years.
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Wonderment
Why are for the most part brown-colored people held in detention centers? Where are the rest of illegal immigrants?
I think the question is valid -- as one website noted: "The U.S. government does not maintain reliable demographics of who is in immigration detention..." (https://www.freedomforimmigrants.org/detention-statistics)
A Canadian woman not too long ago said to me (spontaneously - I did not bring up the subject) the following words when she heard the live TV news broadcast, which dealt about the immigrants being held at dozens of detention centers in USA: "I am Canadian, and I have been living here ILLEGALLY for 29 years. In all those years, not once, have I been asked to show documentation of my immigration status. I really feel sorry for those Mexicans and Central Americans who are getting a different treatment." (End of quote)
And then just this week, a government official suggested (because of recent political rhetorics) that the "Liberty" message of the Statue of Liberty poem has taken on the meaning of "liberty and justice" for Europeans, or something to that effect.
So my question is: Since United States are getting new immigrants every day by the thousands from all over the world (via air, cargo ships, or other, besides the border entrance), what happens to all those people who stay here illegally? Where do they go. Do they round them up? If so, why do we see mostly brown people from south of the border in those Detention Centers (BTW, 71% are private-for profit institutions)?For instance, what about those women who come here from Russia and Ukraine to give birth every day in USA (many overstay their visas)? Where do they put them? Does ICE goes after them? Where do they go? What am I missing here?
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Godlike ones vs. the godlike ones?
by I_love_Jeff innwt: psalm 8:5 * hebrew: 2:7: “you made him a little lower than angels.” if men are called "godlike ones", according to jehovah's witnesses, how, then, are they a little lower than the angels also called the "godlike ones"psalm 82:6 “i myself have said, ‘you are gods*, and all of you are sons of the most high.
*or, “godlike ones.” heb., ʼelo·him′; gr., the·oi′; syr., daʼ·la·hin; lat., di′i; t, “like angels.”****nowhere in the hebrew bible are human beings referred to the word "elohim".
"godlike" in hebrew is termed "כמו אלוהים"
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Wonderment
@ I_love_Jeff,
At Psalm 82.6, human judges are referred to as "gods (’ĕ·lō·hîm)." Psalm 82:7 according to THIS simile the gods mentioned in this chapter are IMMORTAL
I mentioned the HEBREW BIBLE not the New Testament. Human beings mentioned in the Hebrew Bible are not MADE INTO gods but ONLY AS REPRESENTATIVES.
Representatives VS created as gods are two different things thus Psalm 8:5 makes humans mere humans with godlike qualities NOT IMMORTAL like Psalm 82:7.At Psalm 82.6, human judges are referred to as "gods (’ĕ·lō·hîm)." Psalm 82:7 according to THIS simile the gods mentioned in this chapter are IMMORTAL
I think you meant these gods (human judges) are mortal. No?
I mentioned the HEBREW BIBLE not the New Testament. Human beings mentioned in the Hebrew Bible are not MADE INTO gods but ONLY AS REPRESENTATIVES.
Yes, but, Ex. 7.1 says, "See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh." (KJV) So, in a biblical sense God made Moses a god before Pharaoh. True, as a his representative, but nevertheless referenced as "a god."
I think you missed the whole point, which is:
In the Bible, besides Jehovah and Jesus named "gods" of some sort, other individuals were also called "gods." This indicates that the term "god in Scripture goes beyond being used as only the description of almighty God." Satan is called "the god of this world." Therefore, rather than taking issue of whether a god is true, false, or mortal, like Evangelicals are fond of doing, and restricting the sense of "god" to the Supreme God, as Evangelicals tend to do, the Bible goes further by adding a few nuances as you yourself noted.The interpretation of these can be debated, if you will.
Including this one at 1 Kings 18.27 where Elijah said that Ba'al was "a god [Heb. elohim; Greek: theós]." Thus, the Bible supports the view that there are many [so-called] "gods" and "lords" in the world, not only one. (1 Cor. 8.5) In the end, Paul tells us in the next verse, that there is but one true universal God. Can we agree to that?
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Godlike ones vs. the godlike ones?
by I_love_Jeff innwt: psalm 8:5 * hebrew: 2:7: “you made him a little lower than angels.” if men are called "godlike ones", according to jehovah's witnesses, how, then, are they a little lower than the angels also called the "godlike ones"psalm 82:6 “i myself have said, ‘you are gods*, and all of you are sons of the most high.
*or, “godlike ones.” heb., ʼelo·him′; gr., the·oi′; syr., daʼ·la·hin; lat., di′i; t, “like angels.”****nowhere in the hebrew bible are human beings referred to the word "elohim".
"godlike" in hebrew is termed "כמו אלוהים"
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Wonderment
I_love_Jeff says: "Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible are human beings referred to the word "Elohim."
Not true!
In Exodus 4.16, Moses is presented serving as "God" (lê·lō·hîm) to Aaron.
In Exodus 7.1, Moses made "God," or "a god" (’ĕ·lō·hîm) to Pharaoh.
Psalm 45:6, Solomon is addressed as "God (Heb.: ’ĕ·lō·hîm; Greek: ho theós)": “Your throne God forever and ever.” This text was quoted in Hebrews 1.8, applied to Jesus Christ.
At Psalm 82.6, human judges are referred to as "gods (’ĕ·lō·hîm)."And in the Greek Scriptures:
At John 10.34, Jesus quotes Psalm 82.6 confirming the above: W. E. Vine wrote: “The word [theos] is used of divinely appointed judges in Israel, as representing God in His authority, John 10:34, quoted from Ps. 82:6….” (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)
At Acts 12.22, Herod's speech led some to shout: “This is the voice of a god [theou'], not of a man.”
At Acts 14.11, Paul was called by the crowds one of "the gods [hoi' theoi']" when he made a miracle.
At Acts 28.6, Paul was called "a god [theón]" when he survived a deadly viper bite.
As to the term, "godlike ones," it need not be narrow in meaning, since not everyone in heaven has the same status or position. Humans too can be termed "godlike ones*" when they act in representation of God, as Vine noted. Of course, not all humans serve as God's representatives. (*See note on Psalm 82.6, in NWT 2013, TANAK, and NIrV)
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Are You Happy With The Country You Live In?
by minimus ini live in the usa.
is it perfect!
nope.
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Wonderment
Hi blondie,
Your "resume" is quite impressive. You have lots of experience dealing with the world. I have only visited a few countries. I can learn a lot from you.
By the way, I once lived in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in two different time periods. I liked Wisconsin very much. But that cold, you can have it. I could take it no more. So I headed south. Wisconsin and Minnesota are two of the coldest states in the nation. I read somewhere that Minneapolis/St/Paul followed by Milwaukee were the two coldest cities in the nation (of cities with population above 100,00) Oh, I remember vividly all the icicles hanging from the roof of the houses during the long winters there.
The last time I went to Milwaukee I saw a lot of change, not necessarily for the better. Since you have traveled a lot, you have the responsibility now to share your experiences with the rest of us. Okay? -
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Are You Happy With The Country You Live In?
by minimus ini live in the usa.
is it perfect!
nope.
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Wonderment
I like this post.
Hey Simon, out of curiosity, where in Canada are you from?
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Revised NWT released in Spanish
by Corney intoday in madrid.. jw.org/es-nwt.
photos, videos, comments:.
https://jwtalk.net/topic/16901-new-world-translation-2013-revision-in-additional-languages/page/35/#comments.
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Wonderment
smiddy3,
You pose solid questions all the time. I don't pretend to have the answers.
The whole situation becomes a test of faith. I sometimes wonder if God allows such situations in order to reveal who has real faith. But the Bible is like no other book. It has inmense value for all mankind.
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Revised NWT released in Spanish
by Corney intoday in madrid.. jw.org/es-nwt.
photos, videos, comments:.
https://jwtalk.net/topic/16901-new-world-translation-2013-revision-in-additional-languages/page/35/#comments.
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Wonderment
@Tenatious: "No, LOL, that's actually John Goodman from the film "The Gambler" with Mark Wahlberg. Very good movie. I liked his character and his demeanor. Great actor. Wahlberg also did a good job."
Thanks for letting me know that. Now I can rest a bit better knowing that you are not as mean looking as your avatar photo hints at. Lol. It shows how far off I am from the latest in Hollywood, since I see more foreign series overall.
@smiddy3: The word for word Translation of The Christian Greek Scriptures published by the WTB&TS in 1969 read "In beginning the word was,and the word was with God and the word was God." NWT. KI.
Not quite, because the KIT translation between the lines read instead: "In beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward the God, and god was the Word."
The small g in clause c was intended to show that it was a predicate noun extolling qualitativeness, and this qualitative factor (i.e. divine) is accepted grudgingly by many, if not the majority of scholars today, such as Daniel B. Wallace, professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. These scholars accept the notion that the predicate noun (god, divine) in the clause is a description of the substantive. The predicate noun in small g lacks the article in the clause, and is said to be toward the God in the previous clause. Hence the need for a distinction between the two nouns. Verse 2 repeats this message for emphasis. Thus, the quote as you presented it is misleading, since it conveys the opposite of what the translators intended. Wishing you good!
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Revised NWT released in Spanish
by Corney intoday in madrid.. jw.org/es-nwt.
photos, videos, comments:.
https://jwtalk.net/topic/16901-new-world-translation-2013-revision-in-additional-languages/page/35/#comments.
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Wonderment
Hello Tenacious!
Tenacious: "Do you know of any other bible that translates John 1:1 like the NWT? I’d be curious to know."
Here is a partial list: Jeremias Ferbinger; Reijnier Rooleeuw; Abner Kneeland; Oskar Holtzmann; James L. Tomanek; Greek Orthodox/Arabic Translation; Lance Jenott from the Coptic, and Origen Adamantius. Some individuals have published lists out there that include many other alternatives, one of them approaching one hundred and fifty (150) instances.
Tenacious, is that you in the photo avatar with the mean look? If so, I'd better be careful how I talk to you.
Just kidding , my friend. Take care!
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Revised NWT released in Spanish
by Corney intoday in madrid.. jw.org/es-nwt.
photos, videos, comments:.
https://jwtalk.net/topic/16901-new-world-translation-2013-revision-in-additional-languages/page/35/#comments.
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Wonderment
Hi Tenacious!
I will answer the 2nd question first:
Question 2:
Now, I'll address (not really me but I'm definitely in agreement) the validity of Colwell's Rule as selectively applied by NWT translators in order to fit their theology and take away the Deity of Christ. The pressing question is posed by ChristianCourier.com:
“Why is it that the word ‘God’ is translated as ‘a god’ in John 1:1b and 18b of the New World Translation, and yet the identical construction is rendered as ‘God’ in verses 2, 6, 12, and 13 in the same context?”
The criticism above has been prominently championed by Robert H. Countess (Presbyterian), and repeated by legions on the internet. But Countess failed to mention the following:
The "a god expression" in verse 1c appears in a simple nominative clause. The other texts are not.
Verse 2 has God preceded by the definite article, "the God." So, it rightly appears as "God" in the English versions.
Verse 6 has God in the genitive form, the "of" case.
Verse 12 has God in the genitive form.
Verse 13 has God in the genitive form.
A Grammar book explains: “The use of prepositions, possessive and demonstrative pronouns, and the genitive case also tends to make a word definite. At such times, even if the article is not used, the object is already distinctly indicated.” (A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p. 137. Bold & italics added.)
The same idea is expressed by Daniel B. Wallace in the Grammar mentioned below, who also adds:
“The most likely candidate for θεός [at John 1:1c] is qualitative.” (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, by Daniel B. Wallace, Zondervan Corporation)
Question 1: The ESV does indeed translate the verse you cite as "No doubt this man is a murderer." But still yet, the ESV also translates John 1:1b as "and the Word was God." So why did the ESV choose not to translate it as "a god"?
Most Bible translations (ESV and NWT being no exceptions) are done by religious individuals who hold specific beliefs, like the Trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, etc., or the opposite. That is, Evangelicals, like the Witnesses have their own agendas as well, if altogether different.
The ESV makes it plain in their Preface that their version is done by trinitarian evangelical believers for orthodox church-goers:
“The doctrinal perspective of the ESV Study Bible is that of classical evangelical orthodoxy, in the historic stream of the Reformation. The notes are written...within the broad tradition of evangelical orthodoxy, the notes have sought to represent fairly the various evangelical positions on disputed topics…..” (Introduction, p. 10, ©2008) “All [the scholars and advisors involved] are committed to historic Christian orthodoxy. […] “And so to our triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), and to his people, we offer our work ….” (p. 12)
Now in answer to question one, Acts 28.4 does not address the deity of Christ, since Paul is the referent. Thus, the translators had no issue applying customary grammatical principles to the clause (NOT a rule, though.) However, at John 1.1 they face the difficulty of whether to describe Jesus simply, qualitatively as "divine," or go further and assuage the reader to believe that Jesus is more than a god or divine, that he must be "God" himself. Hence, their final reading. In the end, our doctrinal preference will dictate which version is preferable.