Posts by cofty

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

cofty

Things like this "how" makes me think about "why" - John_Mann

Then you need to be more Zen about life and stop inventing hellfire/purgatory/angels/demons etc to explain things that don't need an explanation beyond "shit happens".

Good night

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

cofty

it is humans who are the most bad out of all the species on Earth - Looter

Humans are by far the most compassionate, caring and altruistic species in the entire history of life on earth.

You need to get over your self-loathing.

If your god did exist and the things christians say about him were true then he would be beneath contempt.

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

cofty

Objectively speaking I think this view in face of unjustified suffering and death is better than " shit happens". - John_Mann

When I say my personal philosophy can be summed up as "shit happens", I mean that in many cases bad things are not a result of any intelligent agency. They are simply the vicissitudes of life. This reduces the "why" question to the more rational and mundane question of "how"?

It eliminates the angst and soul-searching and clears the way to getting on with fixing what can be fixed and accepting what can't.

I highly recommend it.

31

At A Loss

by azor in

jw
friends

my wife is in the hospital.

complications of a ruptured appendix.

she had it removed around 1am friday morning.

cofty

Azor I just noticed this thread. I'm so sorry to hear about this crisis. You have been through a dreadful time as a family. Glad to hear your wife is on the mend. I bet you are looking forward to that family trip to Disney.

It's times like this that you feel the lack of support from family and former friends. Best wishes, please let us know how she is getting on.

77

Inappropriate Behavior

by rebelfighter in

jw
friends

now i know i am getting older or of the older generation.

i have had a very strange day with a lot of strange dealings with people with strange behavior today but this one incident was just over the top.

so i came out of a store in a busy shopping center.

cofty

Perhaps the lockers in the gym are too small for his business suit. What is so shocking about seeing somebody in their underwear?

Denedain's attitude is shocking. A man getting changed at the back of his car is not.

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

cofty

So you admit that you characterise Christian believers as either ignorant or dishonest? - SBF

No I have never said that. Why are you deliberately misrepresenting my views - AGAIN?

lets gladly clarify, it just all 1.6 billion or so Christians you call either ignorant or dishonest.

Why do you keep repeating this lie? Is it because you think it's one that others are likely to believe without checking the facts? I have NEVER claimed that all christians are ignorant &/or dishonest.

I am certain you are intellectually dishonest. Is that where the confusion is coming from.

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

cofty

Nobody speaks for atheism. It isn't a thing. It's a lack of belief in one specific claim.

The god of Jesus is impossible. There is nothing embarrassing about saying that.

I have never said that "believers must be either ignorant or dishonest".

You are lying again, Why do you find it so hard to stop doing that?

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

cofty

I wonder if thoughtful Christians are embarrassed to be associated with believers like Looter.

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

cofty

1. Answers that seek to change the question.

For example...
Blaming humans for damaging the earth
References to "the fall"
Slippery-slope arguments such as, "if god prevents a tsunami where does he stop?"
Any answer that appeals to free-will.

Rational Response
The question of this thread is very specific. It only concerns "natural evil". In theology this term relates to suffering that is not caused by human actions. Earthquakes and tsunamis have been happening for millions of years before humans appeared. They are a result of plate tectonics. They are not caused by anything humans have done.

If god chose to do so he could refuse to stop suffering caused by human actions while preventing the negative consequences of how he chose to make the world. Either directly or indirectly, the tsunami was entirely an act of god.

If god had calmed the wave before it had even reached the surface no human would ever have known about it and no free will would have been effected in any way.

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2. Answers that call into question god's ability to prevent the tsunami

For example...
There may have been unforeseen consequences of stopping the disaster
God is not all-powerful

Rational Response
The god of theism is the omnipotent creator. It would have been trivially easy for him to calm the wave and prevent any other negative consequences.

The question is not a problem for worshippers of a lesser god.

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3. Answers that seek to shift the blame

For example...
People should not have lived so near the sea
People should have known how to read the signs
Humans do bad things too
Satan did it

Rational Response...
This is morally equivalent to throwing rocks at a crowd of people and blaming them for not ducking. It portrays god as vindictive and unloving.

The people who drowned were not living on top of a fault-line or beside a live volcano. The tsunami impacted on thousands of miles of coastline around the Pacific Rim. Most of the victims had no opportunity to take evasive action.

Measuring the morality of god against that of human tyrants is setting the bar low for the god of christian theism.

The concept of god's nemesis doesn't even appear in the bible until post-exile when the Jews came into contact with the dualistic Zoroastrian religion. It is a strange pagan notion that makes god look pathetically weak.

Theism does not teach that god handed over his entire creation to a diabolical enemy with no restrictions. The devil can do nothing without the knowledge and permission of god. If Satan caused the tsunami he did so with the full knowledge and permission of god.

This answer is the moral equivalent of letting a wild lion loose in a village and then blaming the animal for the deaths.

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4. Answers that seek to find some benefit in the disaster

For example...
Suffering makes us stronger
Suffering teaches us compassion
It afforded the opportunity for people to offer help

Rational Response...
These are Ivory Tower responses that takes no account of the reality of human suffering. A quarter of a million people learned nothing from being drowned. Their hopes and dreams perished in a moment. Hundreds of thousands of survivors were left bereaved and without homes, jobs or the necessities of life.

Human efforts to clear up god's mess does not excuse his passivity. It is also astonishing hubris that diminishes the lives of a quarter of million people into a commodity to be used for the benefit of producing better christians.

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5. Answers that try to reject the question

For example...
Who are we to judge god?
God can do whatever he chooses
We just need to trust that whatever god does is for the best.

Rational Response...
This answer requires that we unhitch the word "love" from any meaningful definition. We may think we know what love means but god demonstrates that we have not the slightest idea. Love could just as easily mean the capricious annihilation of a quarter of a million innocent people. It destroys our ability to make moral judgements. "Good" is whatever pleases god from moment to moment. Mass destruction is just as morally good as altruism and self-sacrifice.

If god is love, everything he does must be motivated by love, even when he judges. Love is not a hat he can take off for a while and replace with one labelled "vengeance".

Ethics become a matter of divine fiat and the value of human life is trivialised. This defence reduces god to a celestial Pol Pot who may choose on a whim to eradicate our lives in the manner of the killing fields of Cambodia.

Imagine you thought you knew a friend really well. You knew he was capable of being kind and generous as he had demonstrated many times. Then to your horror you discovered he regularly beat his wife and children. You had proof to this effect. It would be foolish of you to overlook his violence as if his moments of kindness made it of no consequence. You would need to put your emotions aside in order to form a more honest appraisal of your friend. Similarly believers need to face up honestly to god's abuse of the human family he claims to love.

If neglecting to stop a wave that drowns a quarter of a million people doesn't give us pause to reconsider the wisdom of blindly trusting of god what would?

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6. Answers that Retreat into temporary Deism

For example...
This is not god's time to intervene
God has promised to end suffering at a future time

Rational Response
According to christian theism, god is intimately involved in human affairs. Not just in giving strength to cope with whatever happens in life, but in actually changing events for the benefit of those who ask in faith.

"If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you." - John 15:7

"Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you , even as your soul is getting along well." - 3 John :2

Even the phrase"give us today our daily bread" proves conclusively that god is active in the world. Anybody who does not believe this is not a christian theist and has taken refuge in deism.

If all christians comply with Jesus' words to petition god for things, and imitate John by praying that god bless and prosper others, then god is active every second of every day responding to millions of requests. If god answers even one of those prayers it destroys the argument that god was not in the intervention business on 26th December 2004

Focussing only on a long-term plan to end suffering does not address the question. A believer still has to show how stopping the tsunami would have hindered that plan.

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7. Answers that trivialise the reality of human suffering

For example..
Suffering will be unimportant compared to eternal rewards

Rational Response
This is ethically repugnant. Suffering is not reducible to arithmetic. This life really matters. Any philosophy that minimises the importance of physical human life is dangerous. It is the same mentality that leads to religious extremism and flies aeorplanes into tall buildings.

It is an extreme example of "the end justifies the means" defence, so beloved of tyrants.

Like other theodicies it is dehumanising by reducing humans to pawns in god's game.

Imagine that scientists developed a pill that would eradicate all unwelcome memories and create a feeling of bliss. How would you judge a scientist who imposed the most horrific suffering on millions of people, as unwilling subjects of his experiment, but who offered some of his victims of the magic pills when it was over?

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8. Answers that make a virtue out of "Mystery".

For example...
God's ways are higher than our ways
There may be reasons that we are not capable of understanding

Rational Response

Thesits cannot take refuge in mystery without being deeply dishonest. Deists and agnostics can get away with it; they only ever make very modest statements about their knowlede of a deity. Theists are extravagant with their knowledge claims. They claim to know all sorts of things about god's nature, qualities and preferences. So when somebody points out a fact about reality that seems to contradict some of thse claims they cannot suddenly cry "inscrutability". The one option that is not open to a theist is feigned ignorance, not with all those things they already claim to know. That would be like a rich man pleading poverty when its his turn to get the drinks in.

The knowledge claims that theists make for god create the following paradox...

A. God observed the Asian tsunami as it evolved

B. God knew it would kill a quarter of a million people and displace 5 million more

C. God had the power to stop the tsuanmi

D. God did not stop the tsuanmi

E. Everything that god does is perfectly loving

Therefore allowing a tsunami to drown a quarter of a million people is a perfect act of love.

But this contradicts everything that christianity teaches about love. Jesus greatest command was "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

If we failed to prevent the violent death of others when it was within our power to do so we could not reasonably claim to be following Jesus' greatest command.

Therefore christian theism is fatally flawed, not only because of external evidence but because it is internally inconsistent.

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

cofty

I don't understand why ask for my definition of evil - John_Mann

Because you are asking me to account for evil. I don't know what you mean by that. It sounds like you are reifying a tragic accident. If there is a god then it was evil. Since there is no god then the cause of the tsunami was geological. No intelligent agency was involved.

I really don't know what your point is.

when you says things just happen without known reasons you're accepting a mystical (mystery) cause.

No. I know exactly why the tsunami happened. Geologists explained it in detail. There is no mystery.

I'm not sure why you say the tsunami was not down to moving tectonic plates. - Ruby

Ruby & Prologos - Subduction of moving plates don't cause a tsunami. Subduction of moving plates is a good thing.

Plates getting stuck cause a tsunami. Pressure builds up for thousands of years in some cases. Then it suddenly breaks free and kills people. Plates getting stuck is a bad thing.

Why is that causing you any difficulty. It is blindingly simple.

Stop pretending to be obtuse.