cofty

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Posts by cofty

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  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

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  cofty

  Fisherman - your bible knowledge is woeful.
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  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  The opneing post seems to demand a number of specific things from God in order for us to believe in him:

  It does no such thing. I demand absolutely nothing.

  Your reading comprehension skills are either very bad or you are just wilfully misrepresenting everything I say - yet again.
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  102

  Any atheists here? Have you come to terms with your new reality?

  by kpop in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  alone, without my safety net of "god" being there to remember me when i die.

  after much consideration, examining science, history and using logic, i have come to the conclusion that there is no "god" at least certainly no loving, personal "god.

  " shortly before my final conclusion was reached, i read an excerpt from an expression attributed to marcus aurelius, .

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  cofty

  It's as if you go out your way to misunderstand and misrepresent my views at every opportunity.

  I can't be bothered correcting your latest serving of disingenuous PoMo bullshit SBF.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  Perry how typical of you to totally ignore every word of my OP and resort to generic rhetoric.

  Anybody can copy- paste a list of links. I guarantee there won't be a single word in this links that could not explain even more clearly than you can.

  Deal with the actual argument please.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  Look for the evidence with your heart if you really want it - Fisherman

  I have no idea what that means. I'm sure you don't either.

  My "heart" says genocide and slavery is wrong. God's word says it's a moral good. What is a man to do?

  There are arguably good reasons He doesn't prove His existence - Cold Steel

  This is nothing but a bald assertion. Also, I didn't ask that there be "proof" of god's existence. What I said was, "If the god of christian theism did exist... it would be more difficult to reject the claims of christianity than to accept them".
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  Sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe. Various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply. I have taken the bait myself in the past.

  I think the correct answer is much more ordinary. If the god of christian theism did exist a lot of simple things would just make more sense.

  The evidence would not show beyond all doubt that the diversity of life rested on millions of years of relentless competition, death and destruction. Life would not have been all but wiped out in mass extinctions at least five times in its history.

  The predominant economy in the natural world would not be parasitic and predatory. The world really would show the loving qualities of its maker without having to ignore the majority of the facts.

  The bible really would contain prophecies that could be verified using objective historical evidence. It wouldn't be necessary to rip verses out of context and interpret ambiguous phrases to try to make details fit post hoc..

  The bible would contain useful information that people could not have known at the time it was written.

  The ethics of scripture would be enlightening and uplifting without exception. It would condemn things like slavery unambiguously and champion the rights and equality of women. It would not advocate moral evils that need to be explained away with appeals to relativism and special pleading.

  Miracles would really happen - even now in the age of CCTV, smart phones and scientific enquiry. It would require stubbornness rather than healthy skepticism to deny them.

  Natural disasters would not kill millions of earth's inhabitants. The planet would not be designed to destroy life.

  Prayers would get answered reliably. Confirmation bias would not be necessary. The prayers of believers would have real and observable power.

  There is so much more detail I could add to this, but in summary it would be more difficult to reject the claims of christianity than to accept them. It is not too much to expect that this should be so.
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  102

  Any atheists here? Have you come to terms with your new reality?

  by kpop in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  alone, without my safety net of "god" being there to remember me when i die.

  after much consideration, examining science, history and using logic, i have come to the conclusion that there is no "god" at least certainly no loving, personal "god.

  " shortly before my final conclusion was reached, i read an excerpt from an expression attributed to marcus aurelius, .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  I am not sure the distinction is terribly meaningful or helpful anyway. In as much as, in either case, people suffer, and an almighty God could stop it if he wished.

  There is a huge difference. There are excuses for why a loving god might permit some suffering. There are no good reasons why he would create a world that keeps blowing up and killing hundred of thousands of its inhabitants. My argument against christian theism has always focussed very narrowly on "natural evil". Like most apologists you prefer to change the subject to an easier question.

  Jesus pointed out that they were no more sinful than others. And Matthew Henry comments: "He [Jesus] cautioned his hearers not to blame great sufferers, as if they were therefore to be accounted great sinners." Which is the basic point I am making to you.

  Your "point" contributes absolutely nothing to the conversation. Jesus said they were unrepentant sinners and that is why they perished. My argument against christian theism centres on the indiscriminate killing of hundreds of thousands including repentant christians and innocent babies and infants. A disaster that god did not just permit he actually caused. Your lengthy and tediously repetitive rhetoric is completely unconnected to my actual argument. But you know that already.

  as you point out it's the indiscriminate nature of such events, rather than whether they are "natural" or not, which is the main focus here

  As I explained above you could not be more wrong about what the focus is. Natural evil proves beyond all doubt that the god of Jesus cannot exist. Other forms of evil - indiscriminate or not - do not.

  The people who died in the tower collapse were not more sinful than others.

  Irrelevant. All unrepentant sinners are worthy of destruction on Jesus' world.

  Yes and this apparently was compatible with Jesus' belief that people who die in disasters are not being punished for being especially sinful but that such events can happen to all sinners.

  I never at any time claimed they were "especially sinful". Just not accepting Jesus is enough to warrant destruction according to Jesus. But I have explained that at least 6 times.

  that doesn't mean there is no answer or there can't be something about the situation I am not aware of or don't understand properly.

  Yes it does. We have all the data we could possibly need. Jesus claimed that god is love. God designed a world that causes immeasurable harm. Jesus explained at length what love means in practical terms. By his own definition god is not love. Therefore Jesus was deluded or he was a liar.

  I make my arguments honestly and with sincerity.

  You have made remarks in recent months that make it very difficult for me to believe that.

  Yet you still trust your friend, and even if you can't think of the explanation, you believe that there must nevertheless be some explanation.

  The situation is absolutely nothing like that. Imagine you discover irrefutable evidence that your friend beats his wife and tortures his children. He doesn't even deny it, he just gets angry that anybody has the audacity to judge him for his actions. So you go on making excuses for him anyway.
• 
  102

  Any atheists here? Have you come to terms with your new reality?

  by kpop in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  alone, without my safety net of "god" being there to remember me when i die.

  after much consideration, examining science, history and using logic, i have come to the conclusion that there is no "god" at least certainly no loving, personal "god.

  " shortly before my final conclusion was reached, i read an excerpt from an expression attributed to marcus aurelius, .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  If you say you can't believe in the God of Jesus in light of suffering from natural disasters. It is of course relevant to point out that Jesus himself apparently believed in his God despite natural disasters that he spoke about.

  1 - A tower collapsing is NOT a natural disaster.

  2 - The Galileans did not die in a natural disaster; they were murdered by Herod.

  3 - Jesus gave an explanation for the death of the men in the tower. They were unrepentant sinners.

  4 - Jesus said his hearers would similarly perish UNLESS they repent.

  5 - He never said a single word about natural disasters.

  6 - Natural disasters kill people indiscriminately including repentant sinners, babies and infants.

  7 - Jesus taught a god who is love

  8 - The god who created a world that randomly kills millions of its inhabitants would be a evil god.

  Therefore the god of Jesus does not exist.

  Every post you have made in the past few pages is nothing but obfuscation. But you already know that. As usual it's all a dishonest game to you.
• 
  102

  Any atheists here? Have you come to terms with your new reality?

  by kpop in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  alone, without my safety net of "god" being there to remember me when i die.

  after much consideration, examining science, history and using logic, i have come to the conclusion that there is no "god" at least certainly no loving, personal "god.

  " shortly before my final conclusion was reached, i read an excerpt from an expression attributed to marcus aurelius, .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  Jesus was aware of natural disasters and that it didn't dent his belief in God

  Translated as "I have not got the first clue how to reconcile dogma with reality but I know of a man who lived 2000 years ago who probably might have known what the answer might be - but actually he never even left us a hint."

  That is the most pathetic example of christian apologetics I have ever witnessed. Christians will be thinking you are trying to defend their beliefs just to make them look bad.
• 
  102

  Any atheists here? Have you come to terms with your new reality?

  by kpop in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  alone, without my safety net of "god" being there to remember me when i die.

  after much consideration, examining science, history and using logic, i have come to the conclusion that there is no "god" at least certainly no loving, personal "god.

  " shortly before my final conclusion was reached, i read an excerpt from an expression attributed to marcus aurelius, .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  The point I was making is that Jesus was well aware of natural disasters and it apparently didn't stop his faith in God. Therefore your claim that natural disasters are incompatible with Jesus' God is at the very least problematic.

  The text you used to try to prove your point was totally useless to that end but you persisted nevertheless.

  If it ever crossed Jesus' mind how a tsunami could be reconciled with a god of love he never shared his thoughts.

  Of course the two can't ever be reconciled therefore we can safely conclude Jesus was deluded.

  it apparently didn't stop his faith in God

  He thought he was god. If he was live today he would be on a par with David Ike