cofty

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Posts by cofty

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  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

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  cofty

  John you are trying to take this topic off on a very strange tangent.
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  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

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  cofty

  Very easily. What matters is brain size relative to body size and how the various modules of the brain are organised.

  Humans have the largest relative brain size and the most complex one.

  But this topic is about the evolutionary roots of religion.
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  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

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  cofty

  Yes Ruby I agree. Leadership and submission is also controlled by moral instincts that limit the actions of the leader. Oppression triggers outrage.

  I will describe the six moral foundations that Haidt sets out later.
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  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

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• 

  cofty

  Of course I agree that religion suppresses individuality and is responsible for a lot of harm. The question is whether human society could have progressed without it.

  Robert Trivers work on reciprocal altruism and game theory explains how we operated as hunter-gatherers living in small groups of related individuals. But perhaps the advent of primitive religion is required to account for large groups of hundreds of non-kin individuals living in agricultural communities.
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  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

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  cofty

  Cold Steel - Interesting. I didn't realise Mormonism was so callous.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  I was just commenting on Jonathan Haidt's perspective on religion in another thread. He also disagrees with Sam Harris' direct link from belief to action - at least he thinks it is too simplistic.

  He illustrates it in a threeway relationship between believing, doing and belonging.
• 
  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  In the mid to late 19th Century, French Sociologist, Emile Durkheim, did some ground-breaking work on the function of religion in human societies. - Steve2

  Emile Durkheim is very much an influence of Haidt.

  He coined the phrase Homo duplex to describe our dual individualistic and groupish natures. He thinks Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, Democratic (WEIRD) societies dismiss the things that bind us as groups at our peril.

  Of course he acknowledges that the things that bind us as a group such as religion also blind us to the virtue of other groups.

  He lays out six foundations of moral intuitions and explains how they evolved and shape our world today. Very interesting stuff.
  
  
  
• 
  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  In his book "The Righteous Mind" Jonathan Haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.

  To put it very briefly Haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans. Our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species. Despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.

  His description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee. We have a "hive switch" that can be activated by group activities giving us a sense of belonging and common purpose.

  He agrees with other researchers that religion and supernatural belief evolved as a by-product of a hypersensitive "agency detector". In other words our ancestors did well to assume random events were a result of purposeful minds. But he then goes one step further and proposes that religions are sets of cultural innovations that make groups more cohesive and cooperative. Groups that were able to put their gods to good use outperformed those who failed to do so. Groups with less effective religions didn't necessarily get wiped out they often just adopted the more effective variations.

  This form of group selection is not opposed to the model of selfish gene. Individuals who possess genes that lead them to groupishness increase their chance of survival and successful mating.

  So according to Haidt religion is not a meme or a parasite of the mind but a vital development in cultural evolution.

  That is a very brief synopsis of Haidt's argument but even as somebody who has been very much influenced by Dawkins, Dennett and Harris I admit I find the idea interesting. I will add some more details of Haidt's evidence later.
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  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  Saethydd - I agree, thanks.

  John_mann please explain specifically why a tsunami is a necessary evil?
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  Let's be more specific.

  Do you think is impossible to build an all-loving and all-powerful being with the existence of natural evil such as a tsunami?

  Yes.