Posts by cofty

74

Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

by cofty in

in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

cofty

the capability to reason must give us the choice to reject any 'benefit' of religion for a better method which encompasses group thinking. - Fairlane

Which is the big question. What better method for example?

74

Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

by cofty in

in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

cofty

Are we as rational beings... - Fairlane

I think it's more true to say that we are only partly rational beings.

Nobody has more contempt for woo woo than I do but I think Haidt raises an interesting question.

Step 1 - Superstitious beliefs arose as the side-effect of hypersensitive agency detection. We assume that random events are caused by unseen beings. Humans lived in small family groups of hunter-gatherers.

Step 2 - Religious ritual activates the "hive switch" and binds hundreds or thousands of people who are not genetically related into groups working for common goals.

Religions that are more effective in achieving group success dominate or absorb groups with less effective religious beliefs and rituals.

So what about now? As people increasingly reject irrational belief systems and become more individualistic do we lose anything valuable? If so what can replace it?

Is the success of Trump partly down to his ability - perhaps unknowingly - to speak to certain intuitions that are part of our evolutionary inheritance?

74

Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

by cofty in

in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

cofty

The topic subject is explained in the OP.

I am taking it as a given that the supernatural assumptions of religion are not objectively true. If somebody disagrees and wants to discuss that instead then that would be a different thread.

Did religion play a valuable role in our evolution, binding together large groups of people to achieve common goals? Despite the obvious problems with religion do we lose anything valuable by discarding it completely?

74

Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

by cofty in

in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

cofty

Which is why we have science.

I'm having trouble connecting this with the topic though.

74

Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

by cofty in

in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

cofty

if evolution is true, then it follows that our mental perception is a tool which has been shaped for survival rather than a tool for accurately depicting the world around us - SBF

That is a false dichotomy between perceiving what is objectively true about the world and survival. What we choose to believe about unknowable future events is a different matter.

Science is the best tool we have to discover what is true. It makes up for the weaknesses in our subjective perception of the world.

It is certain that superstitious religious beliefs are not objectively true. However it is also possible that the advent of groupish religious ritual conferred an evolutionary advantage. If our brains are descended from ancestors whose brains tended towards groupish ritual that would explain a lot about our world.

74

Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

by cofty in

in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

cofty

I was really hoping he and Harris would have gotten into that when they spoke - Azor

Yes that was a very disappointing conversation.

Think secular humanism - Fink

Yes I would identify as a secular humanist but I don't feel in any way connected to any other human just because they share that philosophy.

74

Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

by cofty in

in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

cofty

Being that religion is mostly composed of ignorance, circumventing power, fear and deception, it might be better for humanity to leave religion and move away from all of which religion is composed of. ???

Ok it's hard to disagree. But if it's true that religion has been a main factor in social cohesion what will fill that role?

Are some of the social problems we face in the west today at least in part due to an extreme emphasis on individualism? I know it is controversial and there are studies supporting both sides but Haidt presents some data to support the claim that religious people are more community minded. That includes contributions to the community that are not directly related to church.

74

Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

by cofty in

in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

cofty

while I understand why Dennett and Dawkins refer to religion as a virus, I now find that viewpoint to be overly simplistic and incomplete

I also find Haidt's evidence to that effect to be persuasive.

How would it be possible to replace the group cohesion of religious ritual without lying to ourselves about the supernatural?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

cofty

Waton - As a skeptic that's the sort of extreme example that I am not asking for.

As I said in my OP "If the god of christian theism did exist a lot of simple things would just make more sense."

74

Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

by cofty in

in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

cofty

There is absolutely no doubt that religion has been responsible for a huge amount of harm and oppression. I have often described myself as anti-theist .

My question is about the roots of religious ritual. Was it necessary in our transition from small bands of related hunter-gatherers into larger groups of people?