this is a very simple idea i had not encountered before, and i hope other will find it interesting to.
the essay is taken from http://www.infidels.org/kiosk/article809.html, but i would also strongly recommend the more recent answer to wlcs critisism of the argument at: http://www.infidels.org/kiosk/article835.html.
"doubting jesus' resurrection".
(1) people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie
But they do die for things they wrongly believe to be true.
(2) group hallucinations are impossible.
There are lots of examples of groups convincing themselves of shared delusions. There are some spectacular examples from the Hindu and Roman Catholic faiths.
Nice to know that the holy spirit told you that you are right and anybody who disagrees is going to hell.
the washtowel has a crazy obsession with diminishing the important of jesus' sacrifice for humankind.
i find this so antichristian.
i mean, how can you ignore scriptures like john 3:16?.
they will tell you that he died as a ransom sacrifice to buy back the life that Adam lost for all mankind. They believe that each of us has inherited sin from Adam and Jesus sacrifice covers - Pete Zahut
Then we agree 100%
Ask a Christian about why Jesus died and Adam or inherited sin won't even feature in the answer.
To christianity Jesus' suffering was a vicarious PUNISHMENT not a legal transaction.
the washtowel has a crazy obsession with diminishing the important of jesus' sacrifice for humankind.
i find this so antichristian.
i mean, how can you ignore scriptures like john 3:16?.
Christian (Calvinist) 'morality' is beneath contempt.
the washtowel has a crazy obsession with diminishing the important of jesus' sacrifice for humankind.
i find this so antichristian.
i mean, how can you ignore scriptures like john 3:16?.
Joen - Congratulations! We debated this topic over a period of a couple of years and there were more than 2,500 contributions from dozens of theists. In all that time nobody managed to come up with a response as ridiculous as 'natural evil draw men closer to God'.
I think you might be a troll.
The juxtaposition of that expression of total moral vacuity with a smiley face is really jarring.
the washtowel has a crazy obsession with diminishing the important of jesus' sacrifice for humankind.
i find this so antichristian.
i mean, how can you ignore scriptures like john 3:16?.
nowwhat - What is the first line of the Lord's prayer?
the washtowel has a crazy obsession with diminishing the important of jesus' sacrifice for humankind.
i find this so antichristian.
i mean, how can you ignore scriptures like john 3:16?.
truth - Why do you claim that subjective experiences don't exist? If somebody murdered your family is your pain not real?
Please don't use Richard Rorty as a spokesman for rational atheists. He is an anti-realist postmodern philosopher who eschews reason and rationality.
the washtowel has a crazy obsession with diminishing the important of jesus' sacrifice for humankind.
i find this so antichristian.
i mean, how can you ignore scriptures like john 3:16?.
1 - Natural evil was the topic of the longest thread ever on this forum.
The OP is here ...
A summary of the topic is here...
and of the main arguments here ...
2 - A god who is imminent in the way you describe is incompatible with the God who is love described by Jesus.
the washtowel has a crazy obsession with diminishing the important of jesus' sacrifice for humankind.
i find this so antichristian.
i mean, how can you ignore scriptures like john 3:16?.
Children die of starvation and so it is absurd to believe God hears prayers - Joen
Christians have plenty of facile answers to challenges of this sort.
On the other hand natural evil proves beyond all doubt that the god of christian theism does not exist.
God chooses, appoints, elects. Creation run its course and God intervenes. We are products.
A particularly pernicious version of theism that is internally contradictory.
the washtowel has a crazy obsession with diminishing the important of jesus' sacrifice for humankind.
i find this so antichristian.
i mean, how can you ignore scriptures like john 3:16?.
Pete Zahut - No JW thinks of Jesus' agony as physical punishment suffered vicariously for what they deserve for the things they do wrong every day.
Ask a JW why Jesus died and they will pontificate about Adam.
The difference between a christian understanding of soteriology and the Watchtower doctrine is chalk and cheese.
ETA - For the sake of conversation I am parking the issue of whether any of this actually happened. That is a different topic.
the washtowel has a crazy obsession with diminishing the important of jesus' sacrifice for humankind.
i find this so antichristian.
i mean, how can you ignore scriptures like john 3:16?.
Sea Breeze - is there free will in heaven? Is there evil in heaven?
