cofty

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Posts by cofty

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  310

  Mill Hill Disfellowshippings

  by BorgHater in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a few months ago there was a thread about a couple of elders at the mill hill bethel being disfellowshipped because they disagreed with some wt doctrine (i can't recall exactly what it was) and that several other betheliteswere under 'investigation'.

  i haven't heard anything since, does anyone know anything more about this?.

  borghater xx.

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  cofty

  Sarah would you not agree that the predominant message of the borg is one of sanctified materialism, albeit delayed (jam tomorrow)
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  17

  "ALL Have Sinned!"

  by wannabe in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  does it sound fair to say that, 'all have sinned?

  ' when adam first sinned in the garden of eden, was all mankind alive now, with him when he committed his sin?

  or many billions of others who have ever lived since adam sinned?

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  cofty

  Adam never passed on to us Life, but rather, sin and death; but it could have gone the other way, could it not? We, like them, could have had, right at this very moment in time, Jehovah's Blessing upon us, as the pair had it in the beggining.

  So in your view it was at least theoretically possible for Adam and Eve to have exercised their freewill to be obedient.

  Both outcomes were a genuine possibility.

  And an omniscient god knew in advance which decision they would in fact make.

  So why did he go ahead and create them?

  Why did he not create an Adam and Eve who would exercise their freewill to obey their maker rahter than an Adam and Eve who would do otherwise?

  If you say god could not have known in advance which they would choose (an odd god indeed) then did he know the odds? Was it 50:50?

  Either way your god cannot escape personal culpability for all the pain and suffering in all of human history.

  Russell had no shame in claiming that god knew about the certainty of the "fall" and all the pain that would follow from it before creation. When I first read that in Studies in Scriptures I discussed it with my jw elder dad, one elder to another. He accused me of blasphemy; he was not wrong, but then I was only repeating the teachings of borg's founder.

  Wannabe, think through what you are saying logically. I have no sin and neither do you. The concept is a human construct. Do good things because you choose to love, not for fear of punishment or hope of reward.
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  13

  We were ALL conspiracy theorists once

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have noticed an tendency towards conspiracy theories among the ex-jw community.

  others, like myself are allergic to anything that hints of belief in a conspiracy.

  then it occurred to me that this should not be surprising; the teachings of the borg amount to a conspiracy theory more fanciful than anything ever promoted by david ike and his ilk (see what i did there?).

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  cofty

  Slimboyfat - From your comments on the previous thread

  As someone who is coming to terms with no longer believing as a Jehovah's Witness, I can identify with the "unbearable freedom" of a world not made coherent by some outside organizing force outside my control. For some who leave the Witnesses I get the feeling that the strain is too great, and the desire for meaning so powerful that they are inclined toward accepting conspiracy theories almost as a substitute for Jehovah.

  That's a reasonable point. I agree with your comment that it should give us pause before we mock others. How quickly we forget where we came from, everybody's journey is different.
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  13

  We were ALL conspiracy theorists once

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have noticed an tendency towards conspiracy theories among the ex-jw community.

  others, like myself are allergic to anything that hints of belief in a conspiracy.

  then it occurred to me that this should not be surprising; the teachings of the borg amount to a conspiracy theory more fanciful than anything ever promoted by david ike and his ilk (see what i did there?).

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  cofty

  Thanks leavingwt, when I look back at what I used to believe, not the details of doctrine but the big picture, it really does sound rediculous.

  One is that the impose what looks like some sort of order on a world that is inherently chaotic. The other is a feeling of self-importance that attaches to those "in the know."

  JeffT I think those two factors are crucial. I'm sure there are strong evolutionary reasons why we try to find a reason to explain life's events. It is more comforting to think somebody is in control, even if they are malevolent than to live with chaos. Its interesting too when you even very gently challenge a conspiracy theory how quickly and aggressively its supporters react and accuse you of blindness or stupidity.

  The "truth" is the ultimate conspiracy theory - as you say we grew out of it (at least some of us did)
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  73

  Where is God when the Haitians needed him?

  by AK - Jeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps a hundred-thousand dead.

  millions affected.. how many prayed in vain to stop the quaking, keep a loved one from dying, or for saftey?

  all disregarded, all ignored.. he either doesn't care, is dead, or never was.

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  cofty

  BTS you know that I hold very different views from you but having said that, I respect your honest agnosticism on the problem of evil. Lame attempts to excuse god or avoid the reality of suffering pains all of us but you avoid that.

  Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

  This is difficult to understand. Is god reacting to evil that is outside his control and making positive things come out of it; or is he causing the pain because it is in some unkonwn way for the best in the long run?

  Maybe its a distinction without a difference?

  Either way the world just seems more explicable to me when you take god out of the equation.

  After the tsunami when I was a believer I was sad and angry, this time I am just sad for the victims. No anger, no angst or wondering "WHY?
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  52

  If we are a product of evolution why the need of specific elements in nature?

  by cyberjesus in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for years i believed that god had created all the plants and their elements and nutrients specifically for us.

  yesterday as i was walking at the getty museum was smelling the garlic plants in the garden and made me wonder.

  if we are a product of evolution and the survival of the fittest, why do we depend on a wide variety of plants to survive?

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  cofty

  I suppose the argument is that the plants without even a vestige of the right things die out, those with a hint survive, and gradually we end up with something that works. Difficult hypothesis to prove.

  The power of natural selection is amazing. Creationists frequently make the mistake of thinking that its all about chance. This is a misunderstanding that makes it impossible to grasp evolution. "The Blind Watchmaker" by Dawkins shows how it is way beyond a "hypothesis" it has been proven through experiment and observation many times.
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  26

  what do you look like when you dance?

  by highdose in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'd like to think i look relaxed and cool.

  but i'm aware that in reality i probably look like an idiot!

  haha but by then i'm normaly too drunk to care.. does anyone have the same issue?.

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  cofty

  what do you look like when you dance?

  My dad - shudder!
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  310

  Mill Hill Disfellowshippings

  by BorgHater in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a few months ago there was a thread about a couple of elders at the mill hill bethel being disfellowshipped because they disagreed with some wt doctrine (i can't recall exactly what it was) and that several other betheliteswere under 'investigation'.

  i haven't heard anything since, does anyone know anything more about this?.

  borghater xx.

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  cofty

  Hi Paulapollos, interesting to see the names of "those who seem to be important" at London branch. I knew Paul Gillies' bro Gordon quite well he was in Haddington congregation near here. They were very different from each other; Gordon had a sense of humour!

  I remember Paul on TV once after somebody died in a blood transfusion incident. He was spouting the official line about how no JW is told by the society not to take blood and how it is entirely a personal decision for each individual based on their bible trained conscience. What a liar!

  EDIT - May have been radio interview, long time ago!
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  15

  New Songbook: Pedantic Piano Practise?

  by metatron in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok, the new songbook has gotten rid of some pretty awful lyrics about molested bees and nazarites, etc.

  but after listening to several of the songs played at the kingdumb hall, all the songs started ------ to-------sound--------like-------this.

  one careful paused note per syllable as if the whole songbook was published to help teach children learn how to play piano.. we can't expect "amazing grace" from these hacks, i guess.

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  cofty

  You can download the songs, both all piano and some voice versions, at JW.org under downloads then music.
  
  If you use Windows Media player you can see the lyrics in the window of the application and scroll them manually as the song is played.

  Thanks cattails and booby I mustered enough courage to listen to some of them, was eating some christmas pudding at the time and almost brought it up again. god that was awful , sounds like show tunes written by school children.

  Somebody was singing something about "ebb and flo" - must be some faithful old couple at Brooklyn? Maybe it was "ever flow" - don' they make toilet cisterns?

  I remember when I was young I used to wonder who "brother hood" was hahaha
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  15

  New Songbook: Pedantic Piano Practise?

  by metatron in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok, the new songbook has gotten rid of some pretty awful lyrics about molested bees and nazarites, etc.

  but after listening to several of the songs played at the kingdumb hall, all the songs started ------ to-------sound--------like-------this.

  one careful paused note per syllable as if the whole songbook was published to help teach children learn how to play piano.. we can't expect "amazing grace" from these hacks, i guess.

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  cofty

  Listen to the recordings and tell me I'm wrong.

  Is there a link where we can hear the new "tunes"?