NO ONE - including babies and children - is innocent in the sight of God
What a horrible belief system xtianity is - I used to love it more than life itself.
Posts by cofty
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214Soldiers of Jah
by cofty ini would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.. in the following scenarios i am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.. scenario 1. you are camped on the east side of the jordan waiting for orders to cross into the promised land.
moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to joshua.
he announces that he has had an instruction from god to take revenge on the midianites before he dies.
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cofty
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214
Soldiers of Jah
by cofty ini would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.. in the following scenarios i am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.. scenario 1. you are camped on the east side of the jordan waiting for orders to cross into the promised land.
moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to joshua.
he announces that he has had an instruction from god to take revenge on the midianites before he dies.
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cofty
PSacremento thank you for your very thoughtful response, if only more believers were so intellectually honest.
It would be fair to say would it not, that you can only take your reasonable position by holding a view of scripture that does not see it as the literal word of god?
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cofty
LWT - so true - AKA "No true Scotsman"
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cofty
I don't think anybody converts anybody really but I know what you mean.
I am sure I have helped some to take a more objective look at the evidence against belief.
I am convinced that those who try to attract JWs out of the borg and into the church do them a great disservice, I think its right to offer some balance to efforts at evangelising the vulnerable
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214
Soldiers of Jah
by cofty ini would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.. in the following scenarios i am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.. scenario 1. you are camped on the east side of the jordan waiting for orders to cross into the promised land.
moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to joshua.
he announces that he has had an instruction from god to take revenge on the midianites before he dies.
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cofty
Someone should have told the Romans that ;)
Good point PSacremento. Its also the basis of modern Israel's justification for ongoing war crimes against the women and children of Palestine
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214
Soldiers of Jah
by cofty ini would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.. in the following scenarios i am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.. scenario 1. you are camped on the east side of the jordan waiting for orders to cross into the promised land.
moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to joshua.
he announces that he has had an instruction from god to take revenge on the midianites before he dies.
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cofty
You set up a question then turn around and become repulsed when we answer? And you are the logical one here?
Yes I am repulsed by the ability of xtians to so blithely excuse the war crimes of those who did god's bidding in ancient times. The passing of centuries is of no relevance. Nothing illogical there.
No, that's not what I'm saying but since you brought it up, mankind has killed many more millions in cold blood withoutbeing able to restore them. You tell me, which concept is more reprehensible!
So god's ehtics are being judged as better than modern day tyrants? Don't we need to set the bar a bit higher for the almighty?
We cannot useour present day views of war, marriage, morals, customs etc to judge peoples in the extreme past.
Why not? I am not judging the ancient Israelites I am questioning why the god, who apparently never changes, ordered his people to behave in this way. Unless of course you are conceding that it is in fact just an ancient record of a Bronze Age people who thought they wer acting on god's behalf
You are convincing yourself as well it seems.
Of what?
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214
Soldiers of Jah
by cofty ini would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.. in the following scenarios i am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.. scenario 1. you are camped on the east side of the jordan waiting for orders to cross into the promised land.
moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to joshua.
he announces that he has had an instruction from god to take revenge on the midianites before he dies.
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cofty
The ability of believers to sub-contract their ethics to a third party is truly frightening. I actually feel repulsed by the idea that modern day xtians can even consider being apologists for the war crimes of Israel.
BXJW are you really saying that there was some kind of justice in despatching thousands of women and children in cold blood because thee is an after-life? Is this not exactly the sort of thinking that motivated the crusades and the conquistadors?
You have fallen into the all too familiar world-view of "us and them".
Its the same way of thinking that made it possible for American troops to abuse and torture prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan. Its the same mentality that allowed Israeli troops to engineer the slaughter of thousands of Palestinians in the Sabla and Shatila refugee camps in September 1982. If you have the stomach for it do a google image search with "safe search" turned off. Its the same perverse attitude that has led to uncountable massacres and genocides throughout history. First you convince yourself that god is on your side, then label your enemy as wicked or evil, after that anything is possible.
"gott mit uns" - its the war cry of every tyrant in history and the OT is just another sickening example. -
214
Soldiers of Jah
by cofty ini would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.. in the following scenarios i am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.. scenario 1. you are camped on the east side of the jordan waiting for orders to cross into the promised land.
moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to joshua.
he announces that he has had an instruction from god to take revenge on the midianites before he dies.
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cofty
With respect BJW you seem to have missed or evaded to point.
The above scenarios are based on real events from the OT - See Number 31; Joshua 8; 1 Samuel 15
Anybody who subscribes to the inspiration of the bible is obliged to accept that God ordered those massacres of unarmed women and children. They have no choice but to approve of those events and to hope that if they had lived through them they would have had the "courage" to carry out the orders.
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214
Soldiers of Jah
by cofty ini would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.. in the following scenarios i am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.. scenario 1. you are camped on the east side of the jordan waiting for orders to cross into the promised land.
moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to joshua.
he announces that he has had an instruction from god to take revenge on the midianites before he dies.
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cofty
I would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.
In the following scenarios I am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.
Scenario 1
You are camped on the east side of the Jordan waiting for orders to cross into the Promised Land. Moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to Joshua. He announces that he has had an instruction from God to take revenge on the Midianites before he dies.
The ensuing battle is a complete rout, not one Israelite soldier is killed in return for the complete annihilation of the Midianite army. You return to camp with a massive amount of spoil including tens of thousands of women and children. As you keep guard the commanders go off to report back to Moses. A while later they return with new instructions - Moses is furious about the prisoners of war and wants them separated into groups. The rest of the afternoon is spent separating the youngest girls from the rest of the captives. Its a horrifying task, the cries and of the mothers and the hysterical pleadings of the young girls is very distressing. When its over there are 32,000 girls who your commander says are to be shared out, 16,000 to the army and 16,000 to the rest of the families of Israel.
Cowering in front of you is a mass of terrified humanity, tens and tens of thousands of women and boys, some are only just too young to have fought with their fathers and brothers, others are just babes in arms clinging to their mothers, blissfully unaware of their fate. Now the order comes that you have been dreading. Moses’ command from Yahweh is that every one of them is to be put to death.
As your fellow soldiers unsheathe their swords and move towards the crowd there is a growing cacophony of screams. The women cover their children in a vain attempt to protect them from the massacre. Bodies are being dragged from the heap to uncover babies underneath so they too can be dispatched.
So what do you hope you would have the courage to do?
Faithfully carry out God’s command through Moses, or refuse to follow orders?
Scenario 2
Moses has died and the leadership has passed on to Joshua. The nation has crossed the Jordan and the city of Jericho was defeated miraculously. The next military target is the city of Ai. Yahweh has assured Joshua that the city will be easily defeated and the army have been given permission to take spoils of war.
Joshua has a plan and you are assigned to be part of a group of 30,000 of the best soldiers who are to sneak around the back of the city during the night and lie in wait. Joshua leads another section who moves out in front of the city gates towards Bethel. In the morning the men of Ai set out to repel Joshua’s frontal attack but the Israelite army flee with the Canaanite army in pursuit. With the city unguarded your section invades Ai and sets it on fire before marching out to help Joshua surround the men of Ai. The bluff works like a treat and victory is quick and decisive. You are excited now at the thought of getting straight back to Ai to discover what riches it may have to plunder.
Then comes that order again that you have been dreading. Before anybody gets to search out any valuables there is a job to do. The army is commanded to first go through the city carefully searching every house and execute every last woman and child. As you kick doors open you find women and children cowering together pleading for their lives.
So what do you hope you would have the courage to do?
Faithfully carry out God’s command through Joshua, or refuse to follow orders?
Scenario 3
The nation has been settled in the Promised Land for about 400 years. Your parents have often told you the old stories about the exploits of your ancestors who fought under Moses and Joshua and conquered the land. Israel has its first king now and you are proud to be a soldier in Saul’s army just like your forebears. Mostly your battles are defending the borders of Israel from hostile neighbours but then one day right out the blue you receive a strange instruction. You are ordered to muster at a town called Telaim, when you arrive you see that there are 200,000 foot soldiers as well as another 10,000 from the tribe of Judah. Something big must be happening.
Samuel addresses the troops and tells them he has had a word from Yahweh. Four centuries ago when your forefathers were leaving captivity in Egypt the Amalekites had attacked them in the desert at Rephidim. Joshua defeated them but not without a number of Israelite casualties. Now all these centuries and many generations later, Samuel says that God wants revenge on the descendants of those Amalekites.
Then comes the order you were dreading, “Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys”.
So what do you hope you would have the courage to do?
Faithfully carry out God’s command through Samuel, or refuse to follow orders?
Biblical inerrancy is not just a theoretical debate – it has profound ethical implications.
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48
Jesus Trashes 1914 in ONE Sentence!
by Farkel init only takes one short sentence from the bible to thoroughly demolish the watchtower religion and the doctrine they claim is their most important one.
this sentence is so crystal clear that there is no way the wts can weasal out of it.
that's why they don't even try.. although their real most important doctrine is that the governing body speaks for god, their claimed most important doctrine begins with the notion that jesus took kingdom power and began reigning in 1914. if that doctrine can be shown to be false, the entire watchtower theology scam crumbles into the trash heap where it belongs.
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cofty
Jesus didn't say SOME authority in heaven and earth, or MOST authority in heaven and earth. He said ALL authority in heaven and earth. There is nothing more than "all." There is no more authority or rulership that can be gained than "all."
Excellent point Farkel
I made the same point in my letter about the parousia that I sent to Brooklyn when I was an elder back in '96 - they df'd me