Thank you shepherd for some common sense and balance
Posts by cofty
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69I feel ashamed of some of you
by Lady Lee ini did not sleep well last night.
i tossed and turned until 4 am .
got up and decided to see what was going on.. i am so disappointed in some of you.. simon posted a thread requesting people not post links to the new shepherding book.
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214
Soldiers of Jah
by cofty ini would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.. in the following scenarios i am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.. scenario 1. you are camped on the east side of the jordan waiting for orders to cross into the promised land.
moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to joshua.
he announces that he has had an instruction from god to take revenge on the midianites before he dies.
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cofty
In his blog essay Is Yahweh a Moral Monster?: The New Atheists and Old Testament Ethics, Dr Paul Copan tries to argue that genocide was justified by the need to wipe out the idolatry of the Canaanites.
Let me add a few more thoughts about warfare here. First, Israel would not have been justified to attack the Canaanites without Yahweh's explicit command. Yahweh issued his command in light of a morally-sufficient reason-the incorrigible wickedness of Canaanite culture. Second, the language of Deuteronomy 7:2-5 assumes that, despite Yahweh's command to bring punishment to the Canaanites, they would not be obliterated-hence the warnings not to make political alliances or intermarry with them. We see from this passage too that wiping out Canaanite religion was far more significant than wiping out the Canaanites themselves.
I enjoyed reading John Loftus' response to Copan in which he points out the logical consequences of his attempted apology.
So, if jidahist Muslims kill millions of Americans in order to wipe out our supposedly corrupt religion, then I suppose that would be morally acceptable by Dr. Copan’s logic. It all depends on whether you accept the faith claim that Allah is the true God.
We must also recall that all the supposed crimes and wickedness of the Canaanite is being narrated by their enemies, the biblical authors. Over and over, we see Dr. Copan applying words such as “morally decadent,” “wicked,” to Canaanites because he is accepting the judgments of biblical authors. In any case, Dr. Copan’s procedure would be analogous to using only the pronouncements of Osama bin Laden to judge American culture......
In any event, for Dr. Copan, “idolatry” allows Israelites the right to kill women and children as long as the higher goal of wiping out idolatry is met. Of course, his view of idolatry is what counts. It really amounts to this: “Genocide is OK when my religion does it, but genocide is not OK if your religion does it.”
But, we could just easily reverse this and say that, from the viewpoint of a some mono-Baal worshipper, the worship of Yahweh is idolatry. That should give mono-Baalists the right to kill Yahweh worshippers if the higher goal is wiping out Yahweh worship.
Moreover, we know that, even according to biblical materials, idolatry was not wiped out. Indeed, after all of the genocide carried out by Joshua and his successors, we still find idolatry being lamented in Jeremiah and other later prophets. Yahweh ends up killing women and children in vain. Yahweh apparently lacks the foresight to see that genocide will not work.So god is left not only in the position of a cruel tyrant but also of an incompetent one.
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cofty
Is the pope a catholic?
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214
Soldiers of Jah
by cofty ini would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.. in the following scenarios i am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.. scenario 1. you are camped on the east side of the jordan waiting for orders to cross into the promised land.
moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to joshua.
he announces that he has had an instruction from god to take revenge on the midianites before he dies.
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cofty
I have to say that if you are going by the written account, dear Cofty (peace to you!), which is accurate, at least as far as to the event itself, your opinion is inaccurate, unfortunately. First, not only did Moses not order any massacre, but (1) he pled on behalf of the Egyptians,
AGuest - unfortunately you have changed my original question. You raised the subject of Egypt not me. If you go back and read my OP you will see that I referred to Moses ordering the cold-blooded massacre of tens of thousands of unarmed Midianite women and children.
Numbers 31:14 -Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
You cannot have an inerrant bible and a good god - your choice, one or neither?
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Bart Ehrman
by Joey Jo-Jo inhi everybody,.
bought gods problem by bart ehrman's, firs book i have read from this author, he makes some interesting points about suffering(biblical vs the real world), jews view on jesus etc, and that he does not believe in the ot or nt but he does not consider himself to be an atheist.
joey jo jo junior shabadoo.
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cofty
I've read "God's Problem" and highly recommend it.
There is no such thing as the Bible's answer to theodicy - there are a range of answers. He addresses each of them thoughfully.
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Soldiers of Jah
by cofty ini would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.. in the following scenarios i am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.. scenario 1. you are camped on the east side of the jordan waiting for orders to cross into the promised land.
moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to joshua.
he announces that he has had an instruction from god to take revenge on the midianites before he dies.
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cofty
Hi just got in from work (UK - time difference) really enjoying reading how the discussion has evolved.
So far it seems to be a reasonable position that holding to both biblical inerrancy AND belief in a good god is logically inconsistent.
A few attempts have been made to reconcile the two but I would assert that they are woefully unsatisfying.
We have had ...
1. "Might is right" anything god does is good by definition so who are we to argue?
This is inconsistent with god's own definition of love as revealed through Jesus. We could fear a god of this sort but he is beneath our contempt and unworthy of worship
2. The victims of god's genocide were evil and practiced child sacrifice.
This is just another form of racism and no different from the kind of mentality that has made all of our modern day atrocities possible. Also to deal with child sacrifice by killing thousands of children is dumb even for Yahweh
3. People were more brutal back then, you can't judge them by today's standards.
But we are judging god for giving the order for genocide. His ethics are supposed to be eternal. I also believe it is a mistake to judge modern warfare as less brutal. Google Armenian genocide for a much neglected example.
4. God did the children a favour, their death is only temporary and they may enjoy eternity.
The foolishness and callousness of this is self-evident. Let the infanticide begin.
If, as a number of thoughtful believers have done, we admit that the bible cannot be taken at face value then it seems we loose any foundation for making any definite claims about god all together.
My thoughts so far.
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The Doctrine of Hell
by Yizuman inis the doctrine of hell a hindrance or a help in witnessing?
many evangelicals are ashamed of this biblical doctrine, viewing it as a blemish to be covered up by the cosmetic of divine love.
but this dishonors gods word.
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cofty
It never ceases to amaze me how XJWs continue to defend WT teaching so long after leaving the org. - Deputydog
I am an atheist who denies the very existence of god, I think that teaching children there is a sky-daddy who will punish then eternally if they don't conform is child abuse.
Somehow in your mind this equates with defending WT teaching. No wonder you find it difficult to see the manipulation behind medieval doctrines.
To say that god does not send anybody to hell because they choose to go there is the worse sort of intellectual dishonesty.
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Soldiers of Jah
by cofty ini would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.. in the following scenarios i am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.. scenario 1. you are camped on the east side of the jordan waiting for orders to cross into the promised land.
moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to joshua.
he announces that he has had an instruction from god to take revenge on the midianites before he dies.
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cofty
I'm not evading. I wrote what I meant on a previous page. But we both know that unless the heavens open above you and you see Jesus coming down with his angels it don't matter what anyone here writes. So ignore and be happy
I looked back through the thread, your only answer seems to be something about modern day warfare being just as bad. You really don't seem to have attempted to address the question about reconciling the inerrancy of the bible with the concept of a good god.
I am not asking you to convince me there is a god, just that your worldview is not internally inconsistent
Thanks for the book review LeavingWT sounds like a good read.
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214
Soldiers of Jah
by cofty ini would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.. in the following scenarios i am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.. scenario 1. you are camped on the east side of the jordan waiting for orders to cross into the promised land.
moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to joshua.
he announces that he has had an instruction from god to take revenge on the midianites before he dies.
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cofty
hahaha I think you have stumbled on the only logical answer.
I'm off to bed its way too late here in Scottish Borders. See you all tomorrow night
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214
Soldiers of Jah
by cofty ini would like to propose an ethical dilemma for those who believe in the divine inspiration of the bible.. in the following scenarios i am not asking you what you would have done but rather, what you hope you would have had the courage to do.. scenario 1. you are camped on the east side of the jordan waiting for orders to cross into the promised land.
moses is nearing the end of his life but he has some unfinished business to take care of before he hands over to joshua.
he announces that he has had an instruction from god to take revenge on the midianites before he dies.
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cofty
That is an obvious evasion. How is god good if he ordered the massacre of babies?