Posts by cofty

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

cofty

Until man can create a walking talking human with a consciousness from scratch, no cheating, l will never ever believe in evolution. - automant

This thread is not about evolution automant. Evolution is a fact beyond all reasonable doubt.

This thread is about how life began on earth 4 billion years ago. If scientists could show how it happened "all by itself" would you be able to accommodate that data into your christian worldview? What difference would it make?

Are you 100% sure it will never happen? Vidqun seems to be moving from being certain that is can't happen towards "not-in-my-lifetime".

One of the questions to consider is whether it will or won't happen because it's just too technically difficult or because it can't happen. As a former christian I would have believed that it can't happen because I viewed life as something that only emanated from god. Some believers in this thread seem less sure of that.

That really is the point of the thread.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

cofty

.. and here lies the real motive of threads like these. To bicker with and poke at those who don't see things the way you do. - Sanchy

It is very dishonest of you to characterise my motives in that way. I am currently reading about some of the most fascinating research that is going on right now into the origin-of-life. This is a religious discussion forum. I want to discuss the theological implications of that research. With the exception of my obvious contempt for postmodernist answers my tone to believers has been respectful, patient and helpful.

I didn't realise you had been appointed monitor of what topics are permitted.

They might be hoping for it to not happen, but you as well are wishing for the opposite, so what's the point? It hasn't happened yet, and until it does, they have as much right to doubt it as you do to wish it.

That is a false equivalence. Believers are hopeful it will never happen despite the evidence to the contrary. I believe it will because of the evidence. Until it does we can converse about the current state of the research and it's possible implications - if that's alright with Sanchy?

Sparking new life in a laboratory just proves intelligent beings can spark new life - FHN

I think this is a common misunderstanding and one of the main reasons I started the thread.

The research into origin-of-life is NOT about "making" or "sparking" life. It is about setting up conditions that existed on a prebiotic earth an observing if life happens. If it does no intelligent being will have made anything. It will simply prove that life happened 4 billion years ago through entirely naturalistic means. No intelligent designer was ever needed. It will also show that the universe is probably teeming with bacterial-like life on other planets that have water, rock and carbon dioxide.

34

Found Another Medieval Coin This Evening

by cofty in

i got in an hour metal detecting this evening and found this almost immediately.. it is a silver penny of henry ii minted in london by "davi" between 1180 and 1189. this adds a king i didn't have in my collection.

i now have the series of henry ii - john - henry iii - edward i - edward ii - edward iii.. i now need richard the lionheart to fill in the gap.

he was the brother of john and reigned after the death of henry ii.

cofty

When you find a coin which you can pin to a period in history, is there any way to determine when the coin was dropped there?

Detecting finds mostly come from the plough soil. They have been tumbled back and forward by farming for centuries so they are out of archaeological context. Usually it is safe to assume they were lost around the time they belong to.

The oldest artefacts I have are Roman which in this area puts them around the 1st century AD

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

cofty

Life on Mars would not rule out the existence of an intelligent god, gods or goddesses - FHN

New life in the lab would make her redundant as a source of life. That would be a huge challenge for theism.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

cofty

but even slightly degraded complex once-alive compounds.. - Prologos

It is highly unlikely anything would progress as far as "life" in our aerobic world that is teeming with existing life in every conceivable niche.

The Alkaline Vents in which life probably appeared are not the same environments as they were 4 billion years ago.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

cofty

by pointing out that the idea that scientific discoveries can settle questions about the nature or existence of God is itself questionable - SBF

I said absolutely nothing about the existence of god.

views that question your approach at a more fundamental level ...

Which is code for the pseudo-intellectual, vacuous po-mo, bullshit you spout ad nauseum. Troll.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

cofty

It's because the rest of your argument is based on a hypothetical where you project your biases and disdain for the opposing view.

Origin-of-life science is all about hypotheses. What did you expect?

I expressed my total contempt for SBF's bullshit attempt to destroy the conversation before it began. I am very interested in opposing views on this topic. That is why I started it. I find Vidqun's previous post to be very honest and interesting. Basically he, like many other theists are hoping it will never happen.

There's no real substance added with this post other than it just being a starting point for the ever going origin of life debate, which I know you love being a part of, but, usually your posts are substantive.

Yes. Forgive me for not spending hours over every OP I write. Just most of them.

Another thread outlining the latest developments in bio-genesis research would have been much more instructive and constructive.

I might do that. The point of this thread is to talk about how success in origin-of-life science would impact on theism. I think it is interesting.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

cofty

Just to echo A Ha's comment about oxygen. Life originated on an anaerobic earth.

Oxygen was a toxic byproduct of the respiration of cyanobacteria that are the ancestors of the chloroplasts that perform photosynthesis in green plants.

Aerobic bacteria learned how to use this oxygen as an electron acceptor. Some of these are the ancestors of our mitochondria. In the end oxygen is the death of all of us.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

cofty

this post adds no benefit to the discussion and comes off as a prideful grasping at straws, with much projecting and worthless argumentation. - Sanchy

Why would you think that my statement of fact that - In recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet - is "grasping at straws"?

Is it because you are not aware of recent developments in origin-of-life science? I have very little doubt that the solution - or at least a solution - is not too far beyond our grasp. The specific details have already been laid out in detail. Now the hard work is going on in labs around the world to see if each of the steps can be shown to work.

If you are interested I would be happy to explain some of the details.

Please don't be distracted by stories of "primordial soup". That is a dead end.

I think you should stick to the facts, they are on your side my friend. - Sanchy

I am really not straying beyond facts for a moment.

If it is easy to cobble these processes together, even with simplified, rudimentary precursors, we should be seeing results quite soon - Vidqun

It is really really NOT easy. Some of the best biochemists in the world are working on it though and making progress.

I'm genuinely interested in how it would affect your worldview if/when it does happen. It is assumed by theists that "life" is a special thing that emanates from god alone - "with him is the source of life". If science can show that life begins spontaneously under the correct chemical conditions then surely that would have profound theological implications.

The majority of christians have accepted the fact of evolution and found a way to accommodate it within their theology. I wonder if it would be so easy to adapt the the knowledge that life is a purely naturalistic process.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

cofty

Vidqun your comment betrays the mistaken idea that a cell is animated by a force called life. It is nothing like that. There are simple precursors of all of those complex systems.

I'minterested in how you would accommodate this within your worldview. Would denial be your only option?