cofty

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Posts by cofty

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  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

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  cofty

  This talk is an excellent introduction to some of his ideas...

  ...
• 
  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

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  cofty

  Azor - thanks for recommending Haidt's book to me a while ago. I really enjoyed it. He has some criticism for the "New Atheists". It's always good to be challenged.

  His explanation of political divisions is very timely.

  I will add some more details later this evening. Just briefly to address LUHE's question. Haidt is talking about a relatively recent development. Generic beliefs and superstitions are very ancient and resulted from hypersensitive agency detectors. Nothing new in that proposition. But he goes further and proposes religion as a second phase. One that made it possible for larger groups to bond who were not genetically related. The evolution of the "Hive Switch" was a leap forward and it was the rituals of religion that initially triggered it.

  As Azor mentioned Haidt draws a sharp distinction between the emphasis on individual rights in "WEIRD" cultures like ours (Western; Educated, Industrialised, Rich and Democratic) and the culture of communal ethics that exists elsewhere. There are some really interesting experimental results on the differences in culturally shaped ethics but they are all underpinned by the same set of universal intuitions. Sacredness is one of them.

  His suggestion is that we are losing something that is an ingrained intuition of our human nature, shaped by evolution. Further he explains the success of the right in politics and the problems of the liberal parties in terms of the right's ability to speak to a wider range of human moral intuitions beyond the care instinct.

  More later....
• 
  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

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  cofty

  That's an interesting question Phizzy.

  It appears to be the ritual of religion that has the power to bind groups. The closest secular example might be the closeness of military units that results from repeated collective actions. In the heat of battle soldiers don't take huge risks for king and country as much as for their comrades. The rave parties of the 80s also triggered the " hive switch".

  Haidt proposes that Harris is too simplistic in linking belief directly to actions. He suggests a three way interaction between believing belonging and action.
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  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

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  cofty

  John you are trying to take this topic off on a very strange tangent.
• 
  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

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  cofty

  Very easily. What matters is brain size relative to body size and how the various modules of the brain are organised.

  Humans have the largest relative brain size and the most complex one.

  But this topic is about the evolutionary roots of religion.
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  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

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  cofty

  Yes Ruby I agree. Leadership and submission is also controlled by moral instincts that limit the actions of the leader. Oppression triggers outrage.

  I will describe the six moral foundations that Haidt sets out later.
• 
  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

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  cofty

  Of course I agree that religion suppresses individuality and is responsible for a lot of harm. The question is whether human society could have progressed without it.

  Robert Trivers work on reciprocal altruism and game theory explains how we operated as hunter-gatherers living in small groups of related individuals. But perhaps the advent of primitive religion is required to account for large groups of hundreds of non-kin individuals living in agricultural communities.
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  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

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  cofty

  Cold Steel - Interesting. I didn't realise Mormonism was so callous.
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  I was just commenting on Jonathan Haidt's perspective on religion in another thread. He also disagrees with Sam Harris' direct link from belief to action - at least he thinks it is too simplistic.

  He illustrates it in a threeway relationship between believing, doing and belonging.
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  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  In the mid to late 19th Century, French Sociologist, Emile Durkheim, did some ground-breaking work on the function of religion in human societies. - Steve2

  Emile Durkheim is very much an influence of Haidt.

  He coined the phrase Homo duplex to describe our dual individualistic and groupish natures. He thinks Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, Democratic (WEIRD) societies dismiss the things that bind us as groups at our peril.

  Of course he acknowledges that the things that bind us as a group such as religion also blind us to the virtue of other groups.

  He lays out six foundations of moral intuitions and explains how they evolved and shape our world today. Very interesting stuff.