cofty

Joined

• started 464 topics
• posted 24,957 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by cofty

• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  Waton - As a skeptic that's the sort of extreme example that I am not asking for.

  As I said in my OP "If the god of christian theism did exist a lot of simple things would just make more sense."
• 
  74

  Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

  our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

  despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  There is absolutely no doubt that religion has been responsible for a huge amount of harm and oppression. I have often described myself as anti-theist .

  My question is about the roots of religious ritual. Was it necessary in our transition from small bands of related hunter-gatherers into larger groups of people?
• 
  19

  The Evolution of Morality - Jonathan Haidt

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the question of how humans came to have a moral sense is one of the more interesting challenges offered by believers against unguided evolution.

  even informed christians who accept the reality of evolution feel a need to add an additional step where god imbued man with a conscience.. non-supernatural explanations of the origin of morality usually focus on simple examples of reciprocal altruism and the ability to empathise with fellow creatures.

  secular moral systems most often rest on the single foundation of the effects actions have on the well-being of conscious creatures.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  I have to describe more about the sanctity/degradation foundation. It explains so much.

  Haidt locates its roots in the "omnivore's dilemma".

  Tomorrow - unless Azor has time to describe this part before then?
• 
  19

  The Evolution of Morality - Jonathan Haidt

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the question of how humans came to have a moral sense is one of the more interesting challenges offered by believers against unguided evolution.

  even informed christians who accept the reality of evolution feel a need to add an additional step where god imbued man with a conscience.. non-supernatural explanations of the origin of morality usually focus on simple examples of reciprocal altruism and the ability to empathise with fellow creatures.

  secular moral systems most often rest on the single foundation of the effects actions have on the well-being of conscious creatures.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  Cofty- "experiments suggest that those on the right are far better at accurately understanding the perspective of those on the left than vice-versa."
  Links? - GT

  Haidt did an experiment along with Jesse Graham and Brian Nosek. They asked 2000 Americans to fill out the Moral Foundations Questionnaire. One third of the time they had to fill it out as themselves, one third as they thought a typical liberal might respond and one third as a typical conservative.

  The results were clear and consistent. Liberals were really bad at trying to think like a conservative. They seemed to wrongly assume that care and fairness were not important parts of a conservatives moral matrix. Liberals also have difficulty understanding how Loyalty, Authority and Sacredness have anything to do with morality.

  The problem for liberals is that these things are innate and the right know how to speak to these values.
• 
  19

  The Evolution of Morality - Jonathan Haidt

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the question of how humans came to have a moral sense is one of the more interesting challenges offered by believers against unguided evolution.

  even informed christians who accept the reality of evolution feel a need to add an additional step where god imbued man with a conscience.. non-supernatural explanations of the origin of morality usually focus on simple examples of reciprocal altruism and the ability to empathise with fellow creatures.

  secular moral systems most often rest on the single foundation of the effects actions have on the well-being of conscious creatures.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  I wanted to say I can't believe somebody downvoted your comment; but of course I can. Which is very much Haidt's point.

  You would really enjoy his book. He is a self-confessed liberal who has used experimental work to really try to understand why the right and left don't get each other.

  One of the funny moments in the book is when he felt an irresistible urge to put a flag on his car after 9/11 The group instinct had kicked in despite his years of liberal conditioning. In the end he put a flag sticker in his window and balanced it up with a UN flag.
• 
  19

  The Evolution of Morality - Jonathan Haidt

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the question of how humans came to have a moral sense is one of the more interesting challenges offered by believers against unguided evolution.

  even informed christians who accept the reality of evolution feel a need to add an additional step where god imbued man with a conscience.. non-supernatural explanations of the origin of morality usually focus on simple examples of reciprocal altruism and the ability to empathise with fellow creatures.

  secular moral systems most often rest on the single foundation of the effects actions have on the well-being of conscious creatures.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  Good question GT.

  Haidt admits that as a liberal he too equated hierarchy = power = exploitation = evil.

  He was later influenced by the work of Alan Fiske who described the "Authority Ranking" social relationship. Drawing on his own work in Africa Fiske showed that people who relate to each other in this way have mutual expectations that are more like those of a parent and child than those of a dictator and fearful underlings.

  Conservatives react negatively to anything that subverts the traditions, institutions or values that provide stability.

  The liberty/oppression intuition is interesting. It was a late addition to Haidt's scheme. It arose out of the need to control oppressive hierarchies. Once we invented spears and the language skills to gossip about bad leaders no tyrant was safe. We see it today in the right's demand for small government and Tea Parties slogan "Don't Tread on Me". Conservatives are more parochial. For them the sacred value is liberty.

  But exactly the same moral intuition is motivating the left's drive for social justice and opposition to capitalism. Liberals are more universal in their moral concerns. Hatred of of oppression is found on both sides of the political spectrum. For liberals who rely more heavily on the care/harm foundation the Liberty/Oppression foundation is employed in the service of underdogs everywhere. It leads to appeals not just for equality of opportunity but equality of outcome.
• 
  19

  The Evolution of Morality - Jonathan Haidt

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the question of how humans came to have a moral sense is one of the more interesting challenges offered by believers against unguided evolution.

  even informed christians who accept the reality of evolution feel a need to add an additional step where god imbued man with a conscience.. non-supernatural explanations of the origin of morality usually focus on simple examples of reciprocal altruism and the ability to empathise with fellow creatures.

  secular moral systems most often rest on the single foundation of the effects actions have on the well-being of conscious creatures.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  I think the political left is very crazy

  I can only agree but Haidt's main point is that once we grasp the foundations of morality we can better understand those who see the world very differently.
  

  The left often refer to the right as if they were moral monsters who lack compassion. The reality is that they too want a just and fair world but they also include other considerations in that moral matrix which the left ignore.

  Our moral intuitions have been shaped by hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. We deny our human nature at out peril. Humans are not blank slates.

  Interestingly experiments suggest that those on the right are far better at accurately understanding the perspective of those on the left than vice-versa.
• 
  33

  The reality of "shunning" and character assasination highlighted at the Australian Royal Commission

  by stuckinarut2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  once again, the arc has brilliantly highlighted the reality that any witness who either fades or disassociates is subjected to active official shunning by the organization.. the "brothers" tried to state that it was the choice of the indiviual who steps away from the organization to shun them!

  they actually tried to make it out to be the fault of the one who leaves!

  then they tried to say that those who fade are not shunned!.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  I spoke to Angus afterwards and explained that it is more likely that abuse victims get disfellowshipped because the emotional damage leads them to alcohol, drugs, and sexual behavior.

  Valuable observation.
  
  
• 
  496

  This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

  various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

  i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  No it's based on empirical data. I wrote the OP and I have read every one of your comments. They are all interesting but none of them address the main point.

  Reality and theology don't fit. In lots of little ways theism doesn't pass the common-sense test.
• 
  19

  The Evolution of Morality - Jonathan Haidt

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the question of how humans came to have a moral sense is one of the more interesting challenges offered by believers against unguided evolution.

  even informed christians who accept the reality of evolution feel a need to add an additional step where god imbued man with a conscience.. non-supernatural explanations of the origin of morality usually focus on simple examples of reciprocal altruism and the ability to empathise with fellow creatures.

  secular moral systems most often rest on the single foundation of the effects actions have on the well-being of conscious creatures.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  cofty

  Slightly off-topic but Haidt's research shows that the liberal left are losing ground because they appeal mostly to the first of those moral intuitions, the concern about care/harm.

  The right appeals to all six moral "taste buds", some of which the left don't even view as virtues.