Posts by cofty

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

There were two separate sets of laws regarding slavery. Those that you referred to involve fellow Israelites. I am not objecting to that arrangement in this thread. I am only concerned with god's commands to take slaves as permanent possessions from non-Israelite nations.

An Israelite was instructed to take slaves by force. To own them as part of their personal possessions. To pass them on as part of their estate. If the save owner beat the slave to death there was no punishment as long as the slave did not die on the same day. The justification for this cruelty was the according to god "no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property."

God also instructed Israelite soldiers to kidnap sex slaves. These young virgins had no choice but to be married of to their captors.

During their campaigns god also instructed his army to specifically target women and babies to be hacked to death after the enemy army had been defeated.

The deity who did these things was the god and father of Jesus.

According to your claims about objective morality you are forced to declare all of these actions to be morally perfect. If you would like me to supply biblical references for all of these incidents please ask, it's no problem.

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

cofty

Why not choose the third option

You didn't choose a third option. Logically there is no third option. You just don't understand the question. You chose Divine Command Theory which is one of the two options. That means that when god commands his people to take slaves and commit infanticide you are obliged to declare such actions as morally perfect.

So much for objective morality.

I will explain more about slavery and infanticide shortly. You have totally missed the point.

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

cofty

There is a third alternative, namely God wills something because He is good. - TWM

You haven't solved the dilemma at all. You have chosen Divine Command Theory and called it a third option.

When god commands slavery and infanticide is that because those things are morally good or are we forced to call them good because god commands them?

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

cofty

Nietzsche said if God does not exist everything is permissible. - TWM

Actually he didn't. It is a line wrongly attributed to one of the characters in the book "The Brothers Karamazov" by Fyodor Dostoyevsky.

Of course it isn't true. If god is the ultimate source of morality then anything is permissible. Morals becomes a matter of divine fiat. When god says that slavery and infanticide are morally good, who can argue?

Are you familiar with The Euthyphro Dilemma?

If on the other hand we base morals on an objective foundation like the well-being of conscious creatures then we have a basis to judge actions that doesn't depend on personal preference or subjective opinion.

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

cofty

No that didn't help at all. I gave up proof-texting years ago.

But I did suggest we don't get distracted with a debate about the conflicting versions of the so-called ten commandments. I'm much more interested in discussing your assertions about the need for god to root objective morality.

Here is a link to my first reply to you on that topic...

25

Has anyone here joined a different church after ditching the JWs?

by NikL in

jw
friends

i am just curious.. i have a cousin who is a baptist and his church streams their sunday services and i've been checking them out before i go to meeting with my jw wife.. i haven’t been to a church except for the occasional funeral and wedding and the only sermons i had heard were the tel-evangelist type.

anyway, all the church bashing by jws over the years made me unsure what to expect and i was pleasantly surprised.

they do use the bible and they don't spend the whole time begging for money.

cofty

Yes I was a Baptist for 9 years. In UK not as strict and conservative as US Baptist but still Bible believing.

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

cofty

Rather than argue about which of the three versions of the ten commandments are authoritative let's focus on my post before that one on the basis of objective morality.

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

cofty

Exodus 34 is specifically described by Moses as the "Ten Words". Read the chapter in its entirety. It's quite clear.

I'm surprised somebody who claims to have read the Bible didn't know that.

I'm what way is a law against boiling a kid in its mothers milk one of the top ten moral edicts in human history?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

cofty

Atheism = I find the claims that Christians make about the world to be unconvincing. In the OP I described 9 examples of my reasons.

Nobody speaks for atheism. Least of all Neitzsche.

99

2 Peter 1 = Deity of Christ.

by towerwatchman in

2 peter 1 = deity of christ.

2 pe.

1:1 simon peter, a bondservant and apostle of jesus christ, .

cofty

our moral duties originated from God's commandments such as the 10 Commandments - towerwatchman

Which version of the ten commandments do you base your morality on, the Elohist version at Exodus 20 or the Yahwist version at Exodus 34?

The first version is the best known but the latter is the only one called the "ten words" in the bible.

Exodus 20 ...

1. I am Yahweh your god; you shall not have other gods before my face!

2. You shall not make for yourself a statue or an image.

3. You shall not swear falsely by the name Yahweh, your god

4. Remember the Sabbath day.

5. Honor your father and your mother.

6. You shall not murder.

7. You shall not commit adultery.

8. You shall not steal.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10. You shall not covet you neighbor’s house.

Exodus 34 ...

1. You shall not bow down to another god; for Yahweh is a jealous god!

2. You shall not make molten gods for yourself.

3. You shall observe the festival of Unleavened bread.

4. You shall redeem every first born of your sons!

5. You shall observe the Sabbath.

6. You shall make a festival of Weeks.

7. Three times a year every male shall appear before Yahweh, god of Israel.

8. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice on leavened bread.

9. You shall bring the firstfruits of your land to the house of Yahweh your god.

10. You shall not cook a kid in its mother’s milk.

And Yahweh said to Moses: “Write these words for yourself, because I’ve made a covenant with you and with Israel based on these words.” And he was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights. He did not eat bread, and he did not drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten words (Ex 34:27-28)