Posts by cofty

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

cofty

nscansr - Of course the god of xtian theism can do anything that is LOGICALLY POSSIBLE. Nobody is arguing otherwise.

However your god specifically advocates for evil actions such as slavery, kidnap, rape and genocide. Jesus told his disciples to literally abandon their wives and children to follow him.

But more damningly is the evil that god does himself. He made a world that is perfectly designed to maximise suffering. No creature dies peacefully in its bed. All fall victim to disease, starvation, exposure or predation. That includes all of our human ancestors. The entire history of life on earth is one of carnage.

Then there are the natural disasters that are entirely of god's making. Tens of thousands of innocent children drowned in a tsunami that god could have prevented without any impact on free will.

How do you defend your god from the accusation that he is a moral monster?

9

Update: Its been awhile.. Sorta a long post but i'll have a TLTR at the bottom.

by Jayk in

last time i was really active on here i just found out ttbtt.. i was 28 at the time and now im 33. a lot has gone on but im finally able to live my life.

have my own apartment, steady job, a dog.

a big event that recently happened was a little of a year and a half ago my jw mom passed away.. i hadn't talked to her in over a year prior and i almost didn't go see her before she did.

cofty

Sorry to hear about your family. It does sound like you are making great progress in building a new life. You don't need toxic people.

Draw a line and move on. If they ever have a genuine change of heart fair enough but the ball is in their court. See who is happier five years from now.

42

God and Unicorns

by Sea Breeze in

atheist scientists now agree that "elasmotherium sibiricu" lived with humans.

all they had to do was read their bible to know that.

job 39:9 “will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?”.

cofty

SB I already described the chemical process that preserves organic matter for millions of years.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

cofty

Dreary weather - I think it's a reasonable response for theists to object that god cannot be held responsible for the actions of humans when he has told us not to do those things.

But that doesn't begin to get him off the hook.

He specifically advocates for evil actions such as slavery, kidnap, rape and genocide. Jesus told his disciples to literally abandon their wives and children to follow him.

But more damningly is the evil that god does himself. He made a world that is perfectly designed to maximise suffering. No creature dies peacefully in its bed. All fall victim to disease, starvation, exposure or predation. That includes all of our human ancestors. The entire history of life on earth is one of carnage.

Then there are the natural disasters that are entirely of god's making. Tens of thousands of innocent children drowned in a tsunami that god could have prevented without any impact on free will.

The most popular response from theists is to assert that god can do anything that he wishes. I agree. But he can't behave like an evil monster AND be the god and father of 'gentle Jesus meek and mild' who keeps track of the number of hairs on our heads.

They say we just can't possibly understand god's ways. But that doesn't work. It negates the ministry of Jesus who came to reveal a god of love and show how that love is demonstrated in action, caring for the practical needs of others.

In years of discussing this topic I have yet to meet a theist who will face the challenge of theodicy with intellectual honesty. In this thread Sea Breeze has taken dishonesty to a whole new level. I have sent a PM to appeal for a more useful conversation. Time will tell.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

cofty

Dozens. Good night

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

cofty

You are the very stereotype of an ideologue who is incapable or unwilling to engage honestly with anybody who doesn't share your worldview.

You have taken everything I and nicolaou have said and presented it as the exact opposite of what we actually said.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

cofty

It's becoming akin to playing chess with a pigeon. Your reply is an embarrassment.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

cofty

Please consider that post with the same effort it took to write it.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

cofty

Subjective morality is probably synonymous with personal preference. You have already indicated that this is what you confuse with morality without god. You are wrong in this conclusion. It is a common canard of christians to present a false dichotomy between morality based on god or everybody choosing whether or not to eat babies.

Objective morality is the task of making moral judgements on the basis of a standard we can agree on with others. I have summarised this foundation as the 'flourishing of conscious creatures'. We know the basic needs of other humans since we all share the same physiology. It is always harmful to another person to kidnap and rape them. On this basis we can say that it is OBJECTIVELY wrong to do these things. It does not matter if somebody else does not share this view. They are wrong, objectively wrong.

John Rawls suggests a 'veil of ignorance' as a useful thought experiment in thinking about morality. Imagine yourself in an original position behind a veil of ignorance. Behind this veil, you know nothing of yourself and your natural abilities, or your position in society. You know nothing of your sex, race, nationality, or individual tastes. Behind such a veil of ignorance all individuals are simply specified as rational, free, and morally equal beings. From this position we can begin to think objectively about right and wrong. It is a more sophisticated version of 'do unto others' which predates Jesus of Nazareth by many centuries.

Absolute morality is a term favoured by theists and constantly confused with objective morality. It is synonymous with morality with divine fiat. Those things are good which god says are good and vice-versa.

But how do we know what god says? We have an ancient book but it prescribes moral standards of Iron Age goat herders. Sometimes it advocates love and at other times it positively approves of slavery, kidnap, rape and infanticide. It recommends behaviour that we all find repulsive. Should we follow our conscience or the revealed word of god?

God is a hindrance to objective morality.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

cofty

What is the difference between subjective - objective and absolute morality?