TTWSYF

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Posts by TTWSYF

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  144

  1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

  by StandFirm in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  here is the promised debate.

  the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

  i'll start things simply:.

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  TTWSYF

  Also worth mentioning that I hear often from JW apologists and Catholic haters that the church fathers were Greeks and pagans worshipers and other such nonsense. Once you are repend and are converted, what difference does your former faith make?
• 
  144

  1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

  by StandFirm in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  here is the promised debate.

  the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

  i'll start things simply:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TTWSYF

  Almost all of the early church fathers believed in reincarnation. Ever read Clement's Homilies and Recognitions? How does that fit in with the doctrines of the Catholic Church?

  Got any specific examples? A quote with a page number and book title perhaps please?

  dc
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  144

  1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

  by StandFirm in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  here is the promised debate.

  the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

  i'll start things simply:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TTWSYF

  Agreed JGNAT.

  The writting of the CHurch Fathers are historical texts, aren;t they? There are plenty of those around

  Also, I like your chart, but I couldn't open the link. I wanted to see where they got their dates from, but

  Source, SynKobiety doesn;t seem to open. Is it from a university?

  dc
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  144

  1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

  by StandFirm in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  here is the promised debate.

  the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

  i'll start things simply:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TTWSYF

  There is certainly a lot of mis-information going around and it can be tough for those of us who are not scholars to figure all this out. The good news is that there is plenty of history that can be confirmed. There are true scholarly resources that can be accessed by all.

  The writtings of the Church Fathers are a huge source that should not be ignored by any Christains. There are many complete writtings available that make their positions quite clear and explicit. You won't find these ideas being explicitly discribed in the scriptures because the CHurch was evolving. ie- In the Gospels you read of Jesus being baptised by John the baptist. He was 30 years old or so when this happened. Many on this board and others throughout the world use Jesus's example of being much older when being baptised. After Jesus died [and rose and accended to heaven] the apostles had changed baptism to now being baptised 'in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.' We also see that now entire families and entire households are being baptised immediately and at once. The point is that the early church did evolve and right there is an example.

  IXTHIS make the point that is ignored by many here. That is the quote from MATT 16;18 & 19 too when Jesus said 'And I tell you, that you are Peter, and on this rock I shall build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.' And in 19 Peter is given the keys to the kingdom of heaven. No other apostle is given this role. How many churches did Jesus build?

  Peter was the leader of the apostles and the scriptural proof is undenieable. He's the only one to walk on water [if only briefly],

  in Acts 15 during the only scriptural account of any councils [the Jerusalem Council] it was Peter who presided. not James, the bishop of Jerusalem.

  He was the first to refute doctrinal heresy and errors [acts 8 ;14-24]

  Peter is listed as the 1st apostle [MATT 10;2] and in every list of the apostles, Peter is listed first.

  He works the first miracle after Pentecost [acts 3 ;6-12]

  The first to preach repentance and baptism [acts 2;38]

  Is referred to as leader by an angel of the Lord [Mark 16;7]

  In John 21 ;15-17 we read that Jesus asks Peter to feed his sheep.

  Luke 22;32 Jesus prays that Peter's faith would be strong so that he could in turn strengthen the other apostles' faith.

  Just a few examples of his authority according to the scriptures.

  Now to say that this is not true today is to say that Jesus is a liar or atleast a fool that couldn't build his church right. That it would fall into ruin, that he built his church on sand like the fool in his parables that got his house washed away.

  You may not like it, but the Catholic church is The Church that Christ started, and it is still there as Jesus promised, for all ages, not some ages.

  respectfully,

  dc
• 
  17

  How would you respond to this JW apologist??

  by Black Man in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hey all - as some of you may know, i've been engaged in a pretty big debate with family members as well as internet acquaintances over whether the jw's are a cult.

  thanks to everyone who have posted links to threads that have helped me in my dialogue with them - its actually working.

  the latest is that one of the posters i've been dialoging and he says that agrees with me on many points but he brought up the following response and i ask (how would you respond to this) that i have posted below (by the way, the person he references as gq is me - its my username on that web site):.

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  TTWSYF

  Someone did a post a month or so ago about 'proof that the WTS is a cult' or some other such topic title. It went onto say that a JW strong in the faith would speak to you about any of your doubts about Jehovah, but would get elders involved if you spoke of any doubts about the WTS.

  That struck me as awful. It reminded me of stories of friend that couldn't talk to each other anymore because one was dfed. daed, dqed, what ever. Groups that control your life to that degree are control groups. Not Christian groups imo.

  dc
• 
  21

  Are most JW families dysfunctional?

  by 21stcenturywoman in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  [if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:trackmoves /> <w:trackformatting /> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:donotpromoteqf /> <w:lidthemeother>en-us</w:lidthemeother> <w:lidthemeasian>x-none</w:lidthemeasian> <w:lidthemecomplexscript>x-none</w:lidthemecomplexscript> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> <w:splitpgbreakandparamark /> <w:dontvertaligncellwithsp /> <w:dontbreakconstrainedforcedtables /> <w:dontvertalignintxbx /> <w:word11kerningpairs /> <w:cachedcolbalance /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> <m:mathpr> <m:mathfont m:val="cambria math" /> <m:brkbin m:val="before" /> <m:brkbinsub m:val="&#45;-" /> <m:smallfrac m:val="off" /> <m:dispdef /> <m:lmargin m:val="0" /> <m:rmargin m:val="0" /> <m:defjc m:val="centergroup" /> <m:wrapindent m:val="1440" /> <m:intlim m:val="subsup" /> <m:narylim m:val="undovr" /> </m:mathpr></w:worddocument> </xml><!

  [endif][if gte mso 10]> <style> /* style definitions */ table.msonormaltable {mso-style-name:"table normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"times new roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif].

  based on certain families who i've known personally in the "truth", there was infidelity which resulted in children out of wedlock, drug abuse, abortion (involving an elder's teenager), verbal, emotional, & physical abuse (by parents and spouses), and dependence on public assistance.

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  TTWSYF

  Yes, most JW families are dysfunctional, as are most Mormon families, as are most Muslim families, as are most Catholic families, as are most American families, European, Asian, Indian, Slavician, Canadian, Mexican, Brazialian, etc, etc, etc.

  just my humble opinion
• 
  144

  1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

  by StandFirm in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  here is the promised debate.

  the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

  i'll start things simply:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TTWSYF

  wow, away for a few days and look what happened to this tread.
• 
  144

  1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

  by StandFirm in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  here is the promised debate.

  the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

  i'll start things simply:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TTWSYF

  Yes, there were many bishops made in the first centuries of Christianity, however, always the Bishop of Rome was the leader on doctrine and had the final authority according to history.

  dc
• 
  144

  1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

  by StandFirm in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  here is the promised debate.

  the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

  i'll start things simply:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TTWSYF

  By the fourth century, teachings were so diverse it was not clear what was "Christian"and what was not. Constantine asked for the Christians to settle the matter, and the Nicene Creed was the result. A big "losing" doctrine was Arianism. It is apparent that any central authority, if it ever existed, was gone by then.

  I disagree. The Bishops of Rome had been established for hundreds of years. Peter was the first, then Linus and so on. I wonder when, exactly the 'great apostasy' happened. Which Bishop of Rome was in charge. Arianism wasn't a just a big losing doctrine. It was heresy. How do we know? For those of us who believe the bible is the word of God, the proof is in the bible when Jesus told Peter that he was the rock that Jesus would build HIS church on. He also said that the gates of hell would NEVER overcome it. The first 40 Bishops of Rome follow. It is also interesting to note that although there have been several 'anti-popes', none of them have changed the churches doctrine. Respectfully, DC

  1. St. Peter (32-67)
  2. St. Linus (67-76)
  3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
  4. St. Clement I (88-97)
  5. St. Evaristus (97-105)
  6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
  7. St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
  8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)
  9. St. Hyginus (136-140)
  10. St. Pius I (140-155)
  11. St. Anicetus (155-166)
  12. St. Soter (166-175)
  13. St. Eleutherius (175-189)
  14. St. Victor I (189-199)
  15. St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
  16. St. Callistus I (217-22) Callistus and the following three popes were opposed by St. Hippolytus , antipope (217-236)
  17. St. Urban I (222-30)
  18. St. Pontain (230-35)
  19. St. Anterus (235-36)
  20. St. Fabian (236-50)
  21. St. Cornelius (251-53) Opposed by Novatian , antipope (251)
  22. St. Lucius I (253-54)
  23. St. Stephen I (254-257)
  24. St. Sixtus II (257-258)
  25. St. Dionysius (260-268)
  26. St. Felix I (269-274)
  27. St. Eutychian (275-283)
  28. St. Caius (283-296) Also called Gaius
  29. St. Marcellinus (296-304)
  30. St. Marcellus I (308-309)
  31. St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
  32. St. Miltiades (311-14)
  33. St. Sylvester I (314-35)
  34. St. Marcus (336)
  35. St. Julius I (337-52)
  36. Liberius (352-66) Opposed by Felix II , antipope (355-365)
  37. St. Damasus I (366-83) Opposed by Ursicinus, antilast for ALL ages.pope (366-367)
  38. St. Siricius (384-99)
  39. St. Anastasius I (399-401)
• 
  144

  1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

  by StandFirm in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  here is the promised debate.

  the subject is whether or not god has an organization.

  i'll start things simply:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TTWSYF

  Satanus- certainly people are aloud to disagree on issues and openly discuss them. Paul was a different kind of apostle who met the glorified Jesus. The other apostles had known the man. So one could see how they make look at things a little differently. That said, The Jerusalem Council in Acts [15] was presided over by Peter, not James [who was the bishop of Jeusalem], and not Paul. Peter led it and his decisions were accepted by all there.

  It is also worth noting some other examples showing that Peter was the Rock of which Jesus spoke [aside from the obvious Mathew 16;18].

  In John 21;15-17 Jesus asks Peter to feed his sheep [3xs]

  In Luke 22;32 Jesus prays that Peter's faith would be strong so that he could in turn stregthen the other apostles.

  In Acts 3;6-12 Peter performs the 1st miracle after the Pentecost.

  Acts 2;41 he was the first to perform a mass baptism.

  In Mark 16;7 an angel of the Lord tells the women at Jesus tomb to tell Peter and the other apostles about the risen Lord.

  To name a few examples of Peter's authority.

  respectfully,

  dc