with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?
some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.
Yes, I have faith, but only after reading and comparing what history really says. Both for and against as opposed to only against. If it passes the smell test, then it is what it is.
Real fruits that have helps billions and billions of people is real and historically traceable.
Of course you wouldn't want to comment on these things other proofs. You want to support your position. YOU cannot deny what is truth, you can only ignore it.
with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?
some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.
To deny that Jesus started a church to him self is a learned response. It is an attempt to deny what is clearly and explicitly written and historically traceable. Trying to use reason to explain why it doesn't mean what it actually says is an argument devoid of reason.
His church gave the world the bible centuries after his death and resurrection. He promised that his church would last all ages. He instructed his apostles HOW to set up HIS church. {Who would have a church to himself?} The church fathers all confirmed the deity of Christ and the sacraments [including the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist].
His church gave the world schools, colleges, laws of evidence, the scientific method, hospitals, shelters for battered women, homeless, mentally ill, the old and the poor. His church gave the world food banks and promoted human rights world wide. These fruits are also proof of HIS church as no other group or organization can lay claim to such a rich and full history.
Check the history and scriptures [without theocratic warfare]
with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?
some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.
Mephis- The question or op is 'Did Jesus actually start a church to himself?'
Scripture is pretty explicit in it's proof texts. He commissioned the apostles to go baptizing in his name [or, also the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost]. He laid out instructions on what the apostles should do, what they should teach and how to live. Of course he started a church to himself.
Ask yourself this. If you read that Mohamed said he started a church to himself, would you state something like ' the koran was written 100 years after he died and he was speaking in future tense...so...'
Of course not. The reason is because the argument is not reasonable. Don;t take that as a dig, it's just that you would never read that and think 'he didn;t start a church to himself' even though the test says that he did.
Your argument that HE DIDN"T start his church is not within reason.
Make sense?
Just asking
with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?
some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.
Mephis,
Yes, it is true that there were others who believed in Jesus, but did not follow the apostles per say.
Remember the texts that stated that others were casting out in Jesus's name, but did not follow the apostles ways. This does not mean that Jesus didn't start HIS church on the apostles. He commissioned the apostles to do ALL that he commanded. All other followers would not have the fullness of what Jesus taught. The bible came after the church. The bible was given to the world FROM the church.
There was a church in place by acts of the apostles. This is confirmed in the [1st] council of Jerusalem. Notice that James is the bishop of Jerusalem, but it is Peter who leads and controls the council. Jesus said to go and make disciples proclaiming the gospels to all the nations.
Ultimately, one must take everything into account. Is it possible that a man [or men] could decipher the scriptures better than the Church that gave them to the world? A church started by Christ himself? Perhaps that may be why you reason that Jesus didn't start a church in the face of explicit texts.
so what scriptures do you think will never make the cut?i will start off with one to warm you all up.. 1 corinthians 4:6 - do not go beyond the things that are written,.
How about this one
John 5;23
was it 1931 when they adopted jehovah's witnesses?
(at the time with lower case w) isn't it about time now they changed name again?
i mean everything else is changing why not the name!
with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?
some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.
Mephis
Well,.. we are all entitled to our opinions, I am honestly trying to, but I just don't follow your logic. Being written in one gospel isn't good enough? Do you think that it must be written in other gospels to be legit? What about the all other passages that were not repeated in other gospels? I mean, the bible says Jesus did lots of other stuff that never made it to the gospels, right?
Also your point about Jesus building, or Jesus having HIS church built,or he will build as a way out of this explicit proof text is just a bunch of nonsense. Do you actually believe that? That Jesus did not intend to have HIS church.
There WAS a church [in the making] for hundreds of years before the bible, right? I believe that Jesus DID start a church and started building it on the apostles. The passage that refers to Peter as the rock that he will build his church on is the first corner of the foundation. A building needs a foundation to start. A church starts and is built as it goes along, like a building, no?
with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?
some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.
Mephis- So in your mind, Jesus din't start a church to himself because in Mathew, he says he WILL build his church is in future tense, but Mathew is written 50 years later, iS THAT RIGHT?
Just want to be sure that I understand your position
with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?
some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.
There's no evidence even from our earliest writings about him which suggests he established a church in his own lifetime.
Mathew 16;18
New International Version
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
How could his church survive [and flourish] for 2000 years?
so what scriptures do you think will never make the cut?i will start off with one to warm you all up.. 1 corinthians 4:6 - do not go beyond the things that are written,.
Regarding Jesus
Philippians 2;9
Douay-Rheims Bible
For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names:
