john.prestoran hour ago
Polycarp claimed to be a disciple of the apostle John, yes. I don't accept that claim and I'm skeptical of it but that's what he said. He told some story about him and John fleeing the heretic Cerinthus in a bathhouse in Ephesus.
Anyway, I don't take those 12 claims as facts, which is the problem we're having.
How about Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus of Lyons or Justin Martyr? Do you accept any of those writers? They all write about the early church and the widely accepted facts of the time and reference the biblical 500 witnesses. There are literally 10s of thousands of written pages [intact] of early Christian writers from the 1st 3 centuries of AD Their writings answer many of these questions.
TTWSYF
Posts by TTWSYF
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48An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier
by Rocketman123 inhere is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.
hierarchical political interest may have been involved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.
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TTWSYF
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Was your faith in Armagedddon connected to current events?
by Wasanelder Once inremember when nixon resigned?
the big a was here some said.
remember 1986 and the "international year of peace and security?
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TTWSYF
Armageddon is coming for you.
No one gets out alive.
And when you die and stand before the Lord for judgement, believe me, it will be the end of the world that you currently live in.
Worrying about everyone on the planet dying and not worrying about yourself dying is a most interesting mental syndrome.
ttwsyf
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3 Types of People?
by minimus inas a rule, there are 3 types.
one is the dramatic over the top person where a hangnail means you might have to get your finger cut off.. the second type is —who me, worry?
i’m not going to let too much of anything bother me unless it really is armageddon.. the third type is the person in between.
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TTWSYF
Actually, there are only 2 types of people
1-alive
2 dead
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40
This one bible passage proves abortions are wrong and honoring Mary is right
by TTWSYF innwt luke chapt 1.
41 well, as elizabeth heard the greeting of mary, the infant in her womb leaped, and elizabeth was filled with holy spirit 42 and loudly cried out: “blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruitage of your womb!
43 so how is it that this privilege is mine, to have the mother of my lord come to me?
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TTWSYF
Jifo- I hadn't read the WTS position on calling Mary 'Woman", however I have heard the reference before from JWs as a claim against honoring Mary and always seemed to be in the context of Jesus being annoyed with his mother. My point is that it never happened as it was explained. Jesus was never disrespectful to or of his mother.
Oh, and I forgot to mention - there is a difference between honoring a person and religiosity venerating a person. The Bible says to honor your mother - not pray to your mother nor put up a statue in the likeness of your mother and prostrate yourself before it.
Actually the bible speaks a lot about the saints in heaven bringing the prayers of the faithful to God. It says the same thing of the angels. That they bring the prayers of the faithful to God. How could THEY have these prayers if they were not prayed to.
Pray does NOT mean worship. Pray means to ask. We associate it with worship as we are always asking God for blessing for ourselves and others. If an attorney asks 'I pray the court consider these facts' is the attorney worshipping the courts? 'I pray that this council hears my petitions' Am I worshipping a council or merely asking for consideration? See the diff? Prayer is asking, not worship. I could ask Moses or King David or one of the apostles or some other saint to ask God for favor only because the prayer of the righteous has more weight.
As far as statues or other artwork used in prayer and worship, this is totally biblical as the instructions from God involving the preparing the holy or holies involved angels being embraided onto drapes and the intricate details of the ark of the covenant prove that the worship of these things are forbidden, not the use in remembrance as they are used in some churches.
TTWSYF
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This one bible passage proves abortions are wrong and honoring Mary is right
by TTWSYF innwt luke chapt 1.
41 well, as elizabeth heard the greeting of mary, the infant in her womb leaped, and elizabeth was filled with holy spirit 42 and loudly cried out: “blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruitage of your womb!
43 so how is it that this privilege is mine, to have the mother of my lord come to me?
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TTWSYF
Jeff- the OT is not a guide to what to do in life. There is a shit load of what not to do. The ancient Jews were not a united and coherent faith. They were a race of people.
Christians didn't follow the OT,they only used it then like they do today. In liturgic services. I totally reject the premise of using the OT to define Christianity.
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This one bible passage proves abortions are wrong and honoring Mary is right
by TTWSYF innwt luke chapt 1.
41 well, as elizabeth heard the greeting of mary, the infant in her womb leaped, and elizabeth was filled with holy spirit 42 and loudly cried out: “blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruitage of your womb!
43 so how is it that this privilege is mine, to have the mother of my lord come to me?
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TTWSYF
RM123- aww that old switcheroo of replacing a growing fetus as being a fulling grow child born out of love and intention.
Quick science lesson- no charge. A fetus is a stage of development, it is not a 'thing'. The same goes for an embryo. That is only a stage of development too. Just like being an infant, a toddler, an adolescent, teenager or adult. A fetus of a dog is a dog, a fetus of a cat is a cat and the fetus of a human being is a human being. Thinking that a fetus is not a human being because it is a fetus is nothing short of cultural error and not based on science.
So you would want your daughter to born a child that she never wanted, that continuously reminds her what cased this birth/pregnancy for the rest of her life and to be a responsible parent and mother to this child as well.
She could give her child to another to raise. Maybe someone who had an abortion in the past and then couldn't have children. That would be a good story. Your alternative is to abort and have her remember when she want to have a family and bring back those very real feelings and wonderings about what could have been a more noble decision.
You sure are a godly man then full of sanctimonious self righteousness vindication.
I am neither. I am like everyone else here.
Simon You talk as though the Church invented charity. There is no evidence of that.
Actually, in protestant writer Thomas Woods book titled 'How the Catholic Church built Western Civilization' he notes an abundance of evidence that you have never heard of. Worth looking at to get a legit handle on true history.
There is evidence that they got fucking rich fleecing people with BS though and abused children in orphanages.
Really, how did the Catholic orphanages rate against other peoples' orphanages? Oh right, no one did it before. LOL Seriously though, if you looked to the people who gave the world the bible. You'd never think someone should marry their rapist. You'd never think lying is a good thing and you'd never think that the bible was a guide to life.
RM123 The ancient Hebrew laws of social behavior were so right and just weren't they ?
I reject this premise 100% What Christian follows the ancient Hebrew laws? As a Christian I acknowledge the Jewish God, but I'm a gentile. So are you. OT is not a guide to Christianity.
Should a young innocent girl have to go through child birth and bring a up a child that a rapist inflicted onto her, keeping a constant reminder of how that pregnancy occurred to herself and latter maybe to that child. ?
No, of course not. But that doesn't mean the best choice is to abort. I know women who have had abortions and I know women who have giving their children for adoption. I hold no judgement against the girl who aborts but we all would hold in higher esteem the woman who gave life instead of the other way.
Jeff The superstitious ritual for determining ‘guilt’ relies on ‘God doing a magic thing’ (though back in reality, whether the woman miscarries would have nothing to do with whether she’s ‘guilty’), so it can’t just be explained away as merely Moses said we could’.
Actually Jeff, the passage says that the woman in question must also ask for this along with the priest. Regardless, I am not Jewish, I only acknowledge that my God is theirs. I do not follow the bible as my guide through life. It is not made for that.
TTWSYF
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This one bible passage proves abortions are wrong and honoring Mary is right
by TTWSYF innwt luke chapt 1.
41 well, as elizabeth heard the greeting of mary, the infant in her womb leaped, and elizabeth was filled with holy spirit 42 and loudly cried out: “blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruitage of your womb!
43 so how is it that this privilege is mine, to have the mother of my lord come to me?
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TTWSYF
Simon Yes. Just because the bible contains some no-brainers doesn't make it inspired or negate all the crap that you conveniently gloss over. The bible allows slavery. Humans decided it was immoral. Therefore humans have better morals than 'god'.
Again, I couldn't disagree with you more. Knowing when a person is a parent is not so cut and dry in society is it? During Jesus time people would discard children who were compromised [physically, mentally or emotionally] and it was the first Christians who would pick them up from the side of the road and cared for them just because they were human beings. Those were the teachings of Jesus. Sure, HIS church is filled with great people and people who suck, so yes, there were predators just like there are everywhere, but the teachings are rock solid. Most of my problems are from other people, lol.
Ever see 300? In the beginning the King looked at his son to make sure he was perfect or he would chuck him over the cliff onto the pile of baby bones.
Same thing happens today with people getting tests done to see of their child has downs or some other syndrome. People today [YES] even abort children even based on sex, so I think history does not agree with your assessment of our civilized society.
The good things like foodbanks, homeless shelters, hospitals, universities, orphanages etc did not exist before Jesus's church gave them to the world. There is such a thing as a better choice because there is such a thing as truth.
Rocketman- I would [of course] be devastated if one of my daughters got raped. And I would not fault someone for choosing to abort such a pregnancy, however, what do you think would be the more noble or the better way? To abort your grandchild. Have no love what so ever for the part of the child that is your progeny? I have no idea what my daughters would do. I know what I'd want them to do. And that would be to make the better choice.
Like it or not, God created us to thrive when we face resistance. It could be building muscle by weight resistance, building brain power through reading and studying, even following through on commitments builds a stronger character. The same is true for sufferings. That builds spirituality perhaps and has a value. That's why we shouldn't want to support state sponsored killing and suicide, but it's all part of our evolved society?
I think so.
TTWSYF
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This one bible passage proves abortions are wrong and honoring Mary is right
by TTWSYF innwt luke chapt 1.
41 well, as elizabeth heard the greeting of mary, the infant in her womb leaped, and elizabeth was filled with holy spirit 42 and loudly cried out: “blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruitage of your womb!
43 so how is it that this privilege is mine, to have the mother of my lord come to me?
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TTWSYF
Hey Simon. I guess a better topic headline would've been 'you're a mother at conception' instead of 'abortions are wrong'
That said, how much of a stretch is it? I mean there is always a better way and that is the way that we all should take. Everyone knows [of] some mother who stopped smoking, drinking, starting eating better or changed their life dramatically just because they got pregnant. These are examples of women making the better choice for their children and themselves. They are mothers at that moment. Your mother was your mother before you were born.
Then there's the 'I have a clump of cells' teaching that our higher evolved society promotes. A women's clump of cells is actually a person, just like a dog's clump of cells are actually dogs.
The bible is a poor standard of morality? Well that answer is in the where or who were you taught from or by? The bible has lots of examples of morality. Both good and bad. Good teachers are essential.
When Jesus's apostles started spreading [all] the teachings of Jesus ,the Roman and Greek speaking world had aqueducts, art, architecture, plumbing and a highly evolved humanity. Yet elite Roman and Greek citizens would have a slave boy or girl for sex. Guess what? that was considered the 'good life' .
Jesus's teachings were for all people to love one another as themselves. They invented human rights.
I couldn't disagree with you more on our evolved humanity.
The Truth Will Set You Free
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This one bible passage proves abortions are wrong and honoring Mary is right
by TTWSYF innwt luke chapt 1.
41 well, as elizabeth heard the greeting of mary, the infant in her womb leaped, and elizabeth was filled with holy spirit 42 and loudly cried out: “blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruitage of your womb!
43 so how is it that this privilege is mine, to have the mother of my lord come to me?
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TTWSYF
Sigfrid- being called a racist doesn't hold the weight that it used too.
Soon, it may be a even be considered a compliment..lol
Diogen- You would be hard pressed to find biblical passages that Catholics don't like. The new testament is a Catholic book. The example of Jesus calling his mother 'woman' is not derogatory as the WTS would have you believe. Jesus was never disrespectful of or to his mother. The passage of calling Mary 'woman' is a reference of the OT title of the Woman who will crush the head of the serpent. Enmity between the two. Gen 3:15
That said, not looking to piss anyone off, just listing something that seemed interesting.
Jeff- Interesting passages for an adulterous wife. Clearly she bears more guilt than the adulterous husband. I do not consider those passages as an indicator that abortion is ok. It is like when Jesus said not to divorce and was rebutted with 'Moses said we could.' Jesus replied that it was because of 'your hardness of heart'.
No matter the way that a mother conceives [adultery, rape, incest or traditional marital relations], the person in the womb is 100% innocent and worthy of living a life for no other reason than being created in the image and likeness of God.
TTWSYF
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This one bible passage proves abortions are wrong and honoring Mary is right
by TTWSYF innwt luke chapt 1.
41 well, as elizabeth heard the greeting of mary, the infant in her womb leaped, and elizabeth was filled with holy spirit 42 and loudly cried out: “blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruitage of your womb!
43 so how is it that this privilege is mine, to have the mother of my lord come to me?
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TTWSYF
JP_ Lots of people care what the bible says. Lots of people here have a history of 'living their life according to the bible'. I really don't know why. The bible is a Catholic book that they compiled for use in their liturgy. It was never a guide to Christianity, that came from the teachings of Christ's church. Jesus never said 'live your life according to the scriptures' or 'write down these things for everyone to follow'.
That said, the scriptural passage that I quoted from the NWT does prove that the writer wants you to know that women are mothers at conception and honoring Mary is not wrong. These are BIble verses, not mine.
TTWSYF